Hippias Major - Platonic Foundation

Hippias Major

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persons in the dialogue: SOCRATES of Alopece, son of Sophroniscus

HIPPIAS of Elis, a polymath, sophist and diplomat

scene: a public place in Athens

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SOCRATES: Ah, it is the handsome and wise Hippias!

It has been quite some time since you last

set foot in Athens.

HIPPIAS: I don’t have the time, Socrates. For whenever Elis needs any business transacted with

any other cities, I am the first citizen it approaches, choosing me as ambassador on the

assumption that I am the most competent judge and reporter of the communications from

the various cities. Now, although I have acted as ambassador to other cities on many occa-

sions, I have dealt most often on the most frequent and important matters with Sparta. And

that’s why, to answer your question, I don’t visit this part of the world too often.

SOCRATES: Well, that is what comes of being a truly wise and accomplished man, Hippias. For in

the private sphere, you are indeed well able to secure lavish payment from the young people,

and the benefit you confer upon them exceeds the amount you are paid. And what is more,

in the public sphere you are well able to do good work for your own city, as befits someone

who is not going to be despised but held in high regard by most people. But, Hippias, what

precisely is the reason why those men of old, whose names are a byword for wisdom –

Pittacus and Bias, and the associates of Thales of Miletus

and those who came later, down

to Anaxagoras

– all of them, or most of them, apparently refrained from political activity?

HIPPIAS: Why do you think, Socrates? Weren’t they just lacking in ability, and the competence to

reach an understanding of both the public and private spheres?

SOCRATES: In that case, by Zeus, may we say that just as the other skills have advanced and the

ancients are of no account compared with today’s craftsmen, your skill too, the skill of the

sophists, has also advanced in this way and that the ancients who were concerned with wis-

dom are of no account compared to you?

HIPPIAS: Yes, very much so, that is correct.

SOCRATES: So, Hippias, if Bias were to come back to life nowadays, he would be an object of fun,

just as statue makers say that Daedalus

would be a laughing stock if he had been born in

our times and were to produce the sort of works that made his reputation.

HIPPIAS: The situation is just as you describe it, Socrates, yet I make a habit of praising our ancient

forbears first and to a greater extent than our contemporaries, for although I am wary of the

malice of the living, I am in fear of the wrath of the dead.

SOCRATES: Hippias, in my view you are using words and formulating your thoughts beautifully. I too

can bear witness to the truth of what you are saying, that this skill of yours really has advanced

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Hippias Major, David Horan translation, 10 Nov 25

in its ability to conduct civic affairs and private affairs too. For this fellow, Gorgias, the sophist

from Leontini, arrived here once on a civic matter, acting as ambassador for his own country

because he was the most competent of the Leontinians when it came to public affairs. In the

public arena he seemed to speak excellently, and in private by putting on exhibitions and asso-

ciating with young people, he earned a lot of money and took it out of the city. Or take our

own friend, Prodicus, if you like, a man who has come here many times, sometimes on public

business. But the last time, when he came here recently from Ceos on public business and

spoke in the Council, he was very highly regarded, and by putting on exhibitions in private

and associating with young people he made an astonishing amount of money. But none of

those ancients ever thought fit to charge a fee or put on exhibitions of their own wisdom to

anyone and everyone. In this respect they were simple-minded, and unaware that money is

extremely valuable. But each of these men, and Protagoras before them, made more money

from wisdom than any craftsman made out of any skill whatsoever.

HIPPIAS: Well, Socrates, you know nothing about the beauties of this. In fact, you would be amazed

if you knew how much money I have made. And leaving aside the other places, I once

arrived in Sicily while Protagoras

was on a visit there. He was well regarded, an older man,

while I much younger, yet in a very short time I made more than one hundred and fifty

minae, and in one very small place, Inycum, I made more than twenty minae. And when I

got home with this I gave it to my father, and he and the rest of my fellow citizens were

amazed and awestruck. And I almost think that I have made more money than any two

sophists you would care to name, put together.

SOCRATES: That is beautiful, Hippias, and strong evidence of your own wisdom and the extent to

which men of today are superior to the ancients. Indeed, according to your account, your

predecessors, Anaxagoras’ associates, were very stupid. For they say that what happened

to Anaxagoras is the opposite of what happened to you, for although he inherited a lot of

wealth, he neglected it and lost everything, so lacking in intelligence

was his practice of

wisdom. And they tell other stories like this about other men of old too. Now, I think you

are presenting beautiful evidence concerning the wisdom of people today compared to that

of our predecessors, and many people share the view that a wise man should be wise for

himself most of all, and he is defined, apparently, as the one who makes the most money.

Well, I think that is enough said about this, but please tell me, from which of the

cities you visited did you make most money? Or is it obvious that it was from Sparta, the

one you visited most often?

HIPPIAS: No, by Zeus, Socrates.

SOCRATES: What are you saying? Did you make least money there?

HIPPIAS: Well, I made nothing at all, ever.

SOCRATES: That is a monstrous and amazing statement, Hippias. But tell me this, isn’t this wisdom of

yours the kind that makes better, more excellent people of those who adhere to it and learn it?

HIPPIAS: Indeed, Socrates, very much so.

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Many scholars doubt that Plato was the author of this work.

Hippias of Elis was a noted sophist. In addition to the present work, he also features as the main interlocutor in Plato’s

Hippias Minor, he appears in the Protagoras, and is mentioned in a number of Plato’s other dialogues.

Pittacus of Mytilene, Bias of Priene and Thales of Miletus were wise men who were counted among the Seven Sages.

Anaxagoras was a natural philosopher from Clazomenae in Ionia who lived a generation before Socrates.

Daedalus was a skilled architect and craftsman. He was said to have sculpted figures so real that they appeared to live

and move.

Protagoras of Abdera was an influential sophist and teacher of rhetoric. He is depicted in Plato’s eponymous dialogue,

and positions attributed to him are considered in Plato’s Theaetetus.

According to Anaxagoras, intelligence (nous) is the fundamental principle governing the universe.

SOCRATES: But although you were able to make the sons of the Inycans better, were you incapable

of doing this for the sons of the Spartans?

HIPPIAS: Far from it.

SOCRATES: Well then, do the Sicilians want to become better, while the Spartans do not?

HIPPIAS: No, Socrates, the Spartans want this too, absolutely.

SOCRATES: Well then, did they avoid dealing with you because they were short of money?

HIPPIAS: Certainly not. They have enough of that.

SOCRATES: Then how could it be that although they had the desire and the money, and you were

able to confer enormous benefits upon them, they did not send you on your way loaded

with money? Is it that the Spartans could educate their own children better than you could?

May we put it like that, and would you agree?

HIPPIAS: No, not at all.

SOCRATES: Well, was it because you were unable to persuade the young people in Sparta that they

would make more progress in excellence by associating with you than they would with

their fellow citizens? Or was it because you could not persuade their fathers that they should

entrust them to you rather than looking after them themselves, if they really did care for

these young people? For I presume they would not begrudge their own children the chance

to become as good as they possibly could.

HIPPIAS: No, I don’t think they would begrudge them that.

SOCRATES: And of course, Sparta is well regulated.

HIPPIAS: Of course.

SOCRATES: And in the well-regulated cities, excellence is held in the highest regard.

HIPPIAS: Entirely so.

SOCRATES: And you know better than anyone how to impart this to someone else.

HIPPIAS: Yes, very much so, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Now, wouldn’t someone who knows best how to impart the skill of horsemanship be

more highly regarded in Thessaly than anywhere else in Greece, and make most money

there, and anywhere else that horsemanship is taken seriously?

HIPPIAS: Quite likely.

SOCRATES: Then wouldn’t someone who is able to impart learning, which is of the utmost value in

developing excellence, be most highly regarded in Sparta and make most money there if

he wanted to, and in any other Greek city that is well regulated? Or do you think, my friend,

that he would make more in Sicily and in Inycus? Should we believe that, Hippias? For we

must believe it if you tell us to.

HIPPIAS: Socrates, it is against ancestral tradition for the Spartans to change their laws, or to educate

their sons contrary to their customs.

SOCRATES: What are you saying? Is acting aright and not falling into error against their ancestral

tradition?

HIPPIAS: I wouldn’t say so, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Wouldn’t they be acting aright by giving their young folk a better education rather than

a worse?

HIPPIAS: They would, but it is not lawful for them to give the young a foreign education, and yet

I know very well that if anyone had ever actually been paid for providing education there,

I would have been paid by far the most, for they are delighted to hear me and they are full

of praise. But, as I say, it is against the law.

SOCRATES: And are you saying that law is harmful to the city, or a benefit?

HIPPIAS: In my view, it is instituted with benefit in mind, but it sometimes does harm if the law

has been badly instituted.

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Hippias Major, David Horan translation, 10 Nov 25

SOCRATES: What about this? Don’t those who institute the law, institute it as something enormously

good for the city? And without this, isn’t it impossible to live in a well-regulated manner?

HIPPIAS: That’s true.

SOCRATES: So, whenever those who set about instituting laws are in error about what is good, they

are in error about the law and what is lawful. What do you say?

HIPPIAS: Strictly speaking, Socrates, this is the case, but people are not accustomed to using words

with such precision.

SOCRATES: Are you referring to people who know or people who do not know, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: The majority.

SOCRATES: And are those who know the truth, the majority?

HIPPIAS: Of course not.

SOCRATES: And yet, I presume that those who know believe that, in truth, what is more beneficial

is more lawful than what is less beneficial to every man. Or do you not agree?

HIPPIAS: Yes, I agree. That’s the situation, in truth.

SOCRATES: Therefore, it is as those who know think it is.

HIPPIAS: Entirely so.

SOCRATES: And yet, according to you, it is more beneficial for the Spartans to be educated by the

education you offer, even though it is foreign, rather than the local education.

HIPPIAS: And what I say is true.

SOCRATES: Yes, and don’t you also say that what is more beneficial is more lawful, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: Yes, I said that.

SOCRATES: So, according to your account, it is more lawful for the sons of the Spartans to be edu-

cated by Hippias and less lawful for them to be educated by their fathers, if, in fact, they

really will be benefited to a greater extent by you.

HIPPIAS: And benefited they will be, Socrates.

SOCRATES: So the Spartans are acting unlawfully by not giving you money and entrusting their

own sons to you.

HIPPIAS: I agree with this, for you seem to be presenting the argument in my favour, and I should

say nothing to oppose it.

SOCRATES: Then we are discovering, my friend, that the Spartans, who are regarded as the most

lawful people, are law breakers in matters of the utmost importance. Well, Hippias, by the

gods, they praise you and they take delight in hearing what? Or is it obvious that it is the

subjects you know best, those concerned with the stars and heavenly phenomena?

HIPPIAS: Not in the least. They cannot stand those subjects.

SOCRATES: Well, do they enjoy hearing something about geometry?

HIPPIAS: Not at all, since many of them barely know how to count.

SOCRATES: In that case, they are a long way from putting up with one of your exhibitions of calcu-

lation.

HIPPIAS: A long way indeed, by Zeus.

SOCRATES: Well then, is it those subjects where you know how to make more precise distinctions

than anyone concerning the effect of letters and syllables, rhythm and harmony?

HIPPIAS: My good man! Harmonies and letters indeed!

SOCRATES: Then what do they listen to with such delight, and what do they praise you for? Tell me

yourself since I cannot work it out.

HIPPIAS: They love to hear about genealogies of heroes and humans, Socrates, and the settlements that

established their cities in times gone by and, in short, all the ancient lore. So I have been forced

to learn everything of this sort by heart and practise it thoroughly because of them.

SOCRATES: By Zeus, Hippias, you are lucky the Spartans do not delight in having someone recite

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the list of our Archons, beginning with Solon,

or else you would have had quite a job mem-

orising them.

HIPPIAS: Why so, Socrates? I can remember fifty names having heard them just once.

SOCRATES: That is true, yes, I forgot that you have this gift of memory. I now realise that the

Spartans are delighted with you because you know a lot, and they use you, as children use

old women, to tell stories in a pleasant manner.

HIPPIAS: Yes, by Zeus, about beautiful activities, too, and just recently I was very popular there

for recounting the activities a young person should pursue. For I have a most beautiful

speech that I composed on this topic, generally well structured, especially in its language.

And I have a device and a starting point for the speech as follows. After Troy had fallen,

the speech recounts that Neoptolemus asked Nestor

what sort of activities are beautiful,

the sort that would make a young person really famous. After this I have Nestor speaking,

proposing all sorts of regulations to him, most beautiful. Now, I delivered this in Sparta

and I shall also deliver it here the day after tomorrow in the schoolroom of Pheidostratus,

along with much else that is also worth hearing. Indeed Eudicus, the son of Apemantus,

invited me. But you should be there too, and bring other people as well who are up to the

task of evaluating what they have heard.

SOCRATES: Well, that is what will happen, Hippias, God willing. But, for now, answer a short

question about the speech for me, since you have given me a timely reminder about

beauty. In fact, just recently, good man, someone cast me into perplexity when I was crit-

icising parts of some speeches as base and praising others as beautiful. He questioned

me in a most insolent manner, somewhat as follows, “How do you know, Socrates, the

sort of things that are beautiful or base? Well, come on, would you be able to say what

the beautiful is?” And because of my inadequacy I was perplexed and was unable to

answer him in the right way. So as I went away, I was angry with myself, and I blamed

myself, and I resolved that the next time I came across one of you men of wisdom, I

would listen, learn and practise, and then go back to my questioner again and contest the

point once more. So now, as I say, your arrival is timely, and so give me adequate instruc-

tion as to what the beautiful itself is, and as you reply, try to speak as precisely as possible,

in case I get refuted a second time and become a laughing stock all over again. For you

surely know all too well, and since your knowledge is so extensive, this would presumably

be a trivial matter.

HIPPIAS: A trivial matter, indeed, Socrates, and in a sense, by Zeus, of no significance.

SOCRATES: Then, I will learn it easily and no one will refute me again.

HIPPIAS: No one, indeed, or else my profession would prove to be inadequate and ordinary.

SOCRATES: By Hera, what you are saying is all very well, Hippias, provided we get the better of

the man. But what is to stop me imitating the fellow when you respond, by challenging

your arguments so that you give me as much practice as possible? Indeed, I am somewhat

experienced in putting up challenges. So if it makes no difference to you, I would like to

put up challenges so that I may learn in a more robust manner.

HIPPIAS: Yes, please challenge me. In fact, as I said just now, this is not a major question. No, I

could teach you to answer much more difficult questions than this, so that no one would be

able to refute you.

SOCRATES: Now, that is good news. But come on, and since you are telling me to do so, let me do

my best to become this fellow and attempt to question you. For if you were to present the

speech you mentioned to him, the one about beautiful activities, he would listen, and once

you stopped speaking he would first ask you about justice and nothing else. Yes, that is a

habit of his, and he would say, “Stranger from Elis, isn’t it by justice that whatever is just,

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is just?” Well, Hippias, answer as if he was asking you.

HIPPIAS: I shall answer that it is by justice.

SOCRATES: “In that case, isn’t this justice, something?”

HIPPIAS: Very much so.

SOCRATES: “And isn’t it by wisdom that anyone wise is wise, and by the good that everything good

is good?”

HIPPIAS: How could they not be?

SOCRATES: “By their being something, and surely not by their not being?”

HIPPIAS: By their being something.

SOCRATES: “Now, isn’t everything that is beautiful, beautiful by the beautiful?”

HIPPIAS: Yes, by the beautiful.

SOCRATES: “By this ‘something that is’?”

HIPPIAS: By something that is, what else?

SOCRATES: “Then tell me, stranger,” he will say, “what is this, ‘the beautiful’?”

HIPPIAS: Socrates, doesn’t someone who asks this question just want to find out what is beautiful?

SOCRATES: No, Hippias, I think he wants to find out what the beautiful is?

HIPPIAS: And what is the difference between them?

SOCRATES: Do you think there is none?

HIPPIAS: Yes, there is no difference.

SOCRATES: But of course you know better. Nevertheless, please consider this, good man, for he is

not asking you what is beautiful, but what the beautiful is.

HIPPIAS: I understand, good man, and I shall answer and tell him what the beautiful is, and I shall

never be refuted. Indeed, Socrates, mark my words, if the truth must be spoken, a beautiful

girl is beautiful.

SOCRATES: Well, Hippias, by the dog, you have answered beautifully at any rate, and remarkably

too. So, is it the case that if I give this answer I shall have answered the question I was

asked, in a correct manner, and I shall never be refuted?

HIPPIAS: Indeed, how could you be refuted when you are saying what everyone thinks, and when

anyone who hears you will bear witness to its correctness?

SOCRATES: So be it, very much so. Come on then, Hippias, let me go over what you are saying for

myself. He will question me somewhat as follows, “All these things you declare to be beau-

tiful would be beautiful if the beautiful itself is what?” And shall I then say that if a beautiful

girl is beautiful, these would be beautiful because of that?

HIPPIAS: Now, do you think he will still attempt to refute you on the grounds that what you are

saying is not beautiful, and if he does make the attempt, won’t he become a laughing stock?

SOCRATES: You marvel, I know very well that he will make the attempt, but whether he will also

be a laughing stock if he does so remains to be seen. However, I would like to tell you what

he will say.

HIPPIAS: Speak on.

SOCRATES: “How sweet you are, Socrates!” he will say. “But is a beautiful mare, which even the

god praises in his oracle, not beautiful?” What shall we say, Hippias? What else can we say

except that the mare, the beautiful one, at any rate, is beautiful? For how could we dare to

deny that something beautiful is beautiful?

HIPPIAS: What you are saying is true, Socrates, and the god was right to say so too, for extremely

beautiful mares are bred in our land.

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The Archons were the top elected magistrates in Athens. Solon was a prominent Athenian lawgiver and statesman.

Neoptolemus was the son of Achilles. Nestor was the oldest among those who fought against the Trojans.

SOCRATES: “So be it,” he will say. “But what of a beautiful lyre? Is it not beautiful?” Shouldn’t we

say it so, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: Yes.

SOCRATES: Well, after that I am fairly sure, judging by his manner, that he will say, “Best of men,

what about a beautiful pot? Is it not beautiful?”

HIPPIAS: Socrates, who is the man? What an ill-educated person to dare to speak in such common-

place terms on such a serious matter.

SOCRATES: That is what he is like, Hippias, not refined but common, thinking about nothing else

except the truth. But the man must be answered, nevertheless, and I am giving my response

first. If the pot has indeed been produced by a good potter, smooth, round and beautifully

fired, like some of those two-handled pots that hold six choes,

and extremely beautiful, if

he were asking about a pot like this, we would have to agree it is beautiful. For how could

we say that it is not beautiful, when it is beautiful?

HIPPIAS: We simply could not, Socrates.

SOCRATES: “In that case,” he will say, “isn’t a beautiful pot, beautiful too? Answer me.”

HIPPIAS: Yes, Socrates, this is the case, I think. This utensil too is beautiful once it has been beau-

tifully wrought, but on the whole, it does not deserve to be judged as beautiful in comparison

with a horse, a girl, or all the other beauties.

SOCRATES: Very well, Hippias, I understand that we should respond to the person who asks these

questions as follows, “My man, you are ignoring the fact that Heraclitus

has a point when

he says, ‘The most beautiful monkey is ugly when compared to the class of humans’,

and

that, according to the wise Hippias, the most beautiful pot is also ugly when compared to

the class of girls.” Isn’t this the case, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: Very much so, Socrates, you are responding correctly.

SOCRATES: Then listen, for I know quite well what he will say after that. “Socrates, what if someone

were to compare the girls as a class with that of gods? Won’t the outcome be the same as

comparing the class of pots with that of girls? Won’t the most beautiful girl appear ugly?

Or doesn’t Heraclitus, whom you quote, also say just this, ‘The wisest of men, when com-

pared to a god, will look like a monkey in wisdom, beauty and every other respect?’” Shall

we agree, Hippias, that the most beautiful girl is ugly when compared to the race of gods?

HIPPIAS: Who could possibly contradict this, Socrates?

SOCRATES: Well then, once we agree with all this he will laugh and say, “Socrates, do you remember

what you were asked?” I will reply that I was asked what exactly the beautiful itself is. “In

that case,” he will say, “having been asked for the beautiful, are you responding with what

happens to be, on your own admission, no more beautiful than ugly?” So it seems, I shall

say, or what would you advise me to say, my friend?

HIPPIAS: That’s it. Yes, it is true indeed that the human race is not beautiful when compared to

gods.

SOCRATES: “Now, if I had asked you,” he will say, “at the outset, what is both beautiful and ugly,

and you had answered as you did just now, you would have answered correctly, wouldn’t

you? But do you still think that the beautiful itself, by which everything else is embellished

and appears beautiful when this form is added, is a girl or a horse or a lyre?”

HIPPIAS: Well then, Socrates, if that is what he is looking for, it is the easiest question in the world

to answer and state what the beautiful is, by which everything is indeed embellished and

appears beautiful once this is added. Yes, the fellow is simple-minded and understands noth-

ing about beautiful possessions. For if you were to respond that what he is asking for, the

beautiful, is none other than gold, he would be blocked and would not attempt to refute

you. For presumably we all know that whatever this is added to, even if it previously looked

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ugly, looks beautiful once it has been embellished with gold.

SOCRATES: Hippias, you have no experience of how relentless the man is; he accepts nothing

easily.

HIPPIAS: What does that matter, Socrates? For he needs to accept whatever has been stated correctly,

or else become a laughing stock for not accepting it.

SOCRATES: Well, not only will he not accept this answer, best of men, but he will mock me, hugely,

and will say, “Oh you mad person, do you think Pheidias

is a bad craftsman?” And I shall

reply, I think, “No, not at all.”

HIPPIAS: And you will be right to say so, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Right, indeed. And so, once I agree that Pheidias is a good craftsman, he will say, “Do

you think Pheidias was ignorant of this ‘beautiful’ you are speaking of?” And I shall reply,

“Why do you ask?” And he will say, “Because he did not make the eyes of Athena from

gold, nor her hands, but from ivory, even though they would have looked most beautiful if

made of gold. Obviously he made this mistake through ignorance, being ignorant of the

fact that gold is what makes everything to which it is added, beautiful.” How should we

respond to him when he says this, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: That’s not difficult. We shall say that he made the statue properly since ivory, I think, is

beautiful too.

SOCRATES: “In that case,” he will say, “why did he not also make the centre of the eyes from ivory

rather than stone, finding stone that was very like ivory? Or is a beautiful stone also beau-

tiful?” Shall we say so, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: Yes, we shall say so, whenever it is appropriate.

SOCRATES: “And whenever it is not appropriate, is it ugly?” Should I agree, or not?

HIPPIAS: Yes, agree, whenever it is not appropriate, at any rate.

SOCRATES: “Then, what about the ivory and the gold, oh wise one?” he shall say. “Don’t they make

things look beautiful when they are appropriate, and ugly when they are not?” Shall we

deny this or agree that what he is saying is right?

HIPPIAS: We will agree with that anyway. Whatever is appropriate to each is what makes each

beautiful.

SOCRATES: He will say, “Whenever someone is boiling the pot we mentioned earlier, the beautiful

one, full of beautiful soup, is a gold ladle appropriate to it or a fig wood ladle?”

HIPPIAS: By Heracles, what sort of man is this, Socrates? Don’t you want to tell me who he is?

SOCRATES: If I were to tell you his name, you would not recognise it.

HIPPIAS: But I do recognise, even now, that he is a fool.

SOCRATES: He is a thoroughgoing pestilence, Hippias, but, nevertheless, what shall we say? Which

of the two ladles is appropriate to the soup and to the pot? Or is it obviously the one made

from fig wood? For it is likely to make the soup smell nicer, and at the same time, my friend,

it would not shatter our pot, spill the soup, put out the fire, and deprive the impending diners

of their noble meal, while the golden one would do all that. And so I think we should say

that the fig wood is more appropriate than the golden unless you have an alternative sug-

gestion.

HIPPIAS: No, it is more appropriate, Socrates. However, I would not engage in discourse with a

person who asks questions of that kind.

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Six choes is equivalent to about three litres.

Heraclitus of Ephesus was a philosopher known for his gnomic utterances.

Fragment B82, Diels-Kranz.

Pheidias was a sculptor, painter and architect. He was noted for his gold and ivory statue of Zeus at Olympia, and the

statue of Athena in the Parthenon at the Athenian Acropolis.

SOCRATES: And rightly so, my friend. Yes, it would not be appropriate for you to adopt this sort of

language when you are so beautifully dressed, so beautifully shod, and so famous for your

wisdom among all the Greeks. But it is not a problem for me to consort with this person,

so give me some preparatory instructions. Answer the question for my sake. The man will

ask, “Well, if the fig wood is indeed more appropriate than the golden, wouldn’t it also be

more beautiful, since you have actually agreed, Socrates, that what is appropriate is more

beautiful than what is not appropriate?” Can we help but agree, Hippias, that the fig wood

ladle is more beautiful than the golden one?

HIPPIAS: Socrates, would you like me to suggest what you should say the beautiful is, if you want

to save yourself a lot of argumentation?

SOCRATES: Very much so, but not before you first tell me how I should answer the question, which

of the two ladles I just spoke of is appropriate and also more beautiful?

HIPPIAS: Well tell him, if you like, that it is the one made from fig wood.

SOCRATES: Then say what you were going to say a moment ago. For by this answer, if I say that

the beautiful is gold, it seems to me that gold will turn out to be no more beautiful than fig

wood. So what do you now say the beautiful is?

HIPPIAS: I’ll tell you, for I think you are seeking a response according to which the beautiful is the

sort of thing that will never appear base anywhere, to anyone.

SOCRATES: Very much so, Hippias, you are now understanding this beautifully.

HIPPIAS: Then listen, and be assured that if anyone has anything to say in opposition to this, you

may proclaim that I know nothing at all.

SOCRATES: By the gods, please tell me as quickly as you can.

HIPPIAS: Well, I say it is always most beautiful for any man, anywhere, to be wealthy, healthy, hon-

oured by his fellow Greeks, to live to old age, to commemorate his own parents beautifully

when they die, and be given a beautiful and most appropriate funeral by his own children.

SOCRATES: My, my, Hippias, you really have spoken wonderfully, magnificently, and in a manner

worthy of yourself. And, by Hera, I am delighted at the kind manner in which you seem, to

the best of your ability, to be coming to my aid. And yet, we are making no impression on

the man. No, he will laugh at us now to an even greater extent, mark my words.

HIPPIAS: The laughter is no good, Socrates. For whenever he has nothing to say on these issues

and he laughs, he will be laughing at himself, and he himself will be laughed at by the

people around him.

SOCRATES: Perhaps that is so, and perhaps, if I give this answer, there is a danger, I prophesy, that

he will do more than just laugh at me.

HIPPIAS: What do you mean?

SOCRATES: That if he happens to have a stick, and I don’t get away and escape him, he will try to

beat me well and truly.

HIPPIAS: What are you saying? Is the man in some sense your owner, and if he does this will he

not be charged and pay a penalty? Or is your city lacking in justice, and does it allow the

citizens to beat one another unjustly?

SOCRATES: No, we do not allow that at all.

HIPPIAS: Then he will pay a penalty for striking you unjustly.

SOCRATES: No, I do not think so, Hippias, not if I were to give him that reply. I think he would be

acting justly.

HIPPIAS: Then, I think so too since that is what you yourself believe.

SOCRATES: Shouldn’t I also tell you why I believe he would be acting justly if he beat me for giving

that reply? Or will you also beat me without trial? Or will you hear my argument?

HIPPIAS: If I were not to hear you out, it would be a scandal, but what are you saying?

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SOCRATES: I will tell you, imitating that man in the same way I did just now so that I do not speak

to you the sort of harsh, uncouth words he speaks to me. For rest assured, he will say, “Tell

me, Socrates, would you think it unjust that someone should get beaten for singing a

dithyramb

of such length, in such an unmusical manner, and so far removed from the

question that was asked?” “How so?” I shall ask. “How so?” he will say. “Can’t you recall

that you were asked for the beautiful itself, by which anything to which it is added turns

out to be beautiful, be it a stone, wood, a person or a god, or any action or any subject? For

I am asking you, my man, what beauty itself is, and I am no more able to make you hear

me than if you were a stone seated beside me, a millstone at that, possessing neither ears

nor a brain.”

Now, Hippias, wouldn’t you be annoyed if, out of fear, I were to reply to this as fol-

lows, “But Hippias said this was the beautiful, even though I asked him in the same way

you asked me, what is it that is beautiful to everyone, always?” What do you say, wouldn’t

you be annoyed if I were to say this?

HIPPIAS: Well, Socrates, I know quite well that what is beautiful to everyone is what I said it was,

and it will seem so to everyone.

SOCRATES: “And it will be so?” he will say, “for the beautiful is, presumably, always beautiful.”

HIPPIAS: Certainly.

SOCRATES: “And it was so too, was it?” he will say.

HIPPIAS: It was so too.

SOCRATES: “So,” he will say, “did the visitor from Elis say that it was beautiful for Achilles to be

buried after his parents, and for his grandfather Aeacus, and for all the other offspring of

the gods, and for the gods themselves?”

HIPPIAS: What’s this? Away, by heaven! The questions the man is asking are impious, Socrates.

SOCRATES: What about this? When someone else asks the question, is it entirely impious to say

that these things are so?

HIPPIAS: Perhaps not.

SOCRATES: “Then perhaps you are the person,” he will say, “who declares that it is beautiful for

everyone, always, to be buried by their children and to bury their parents. Or was Heracles

not included among ‘everyone’, along with all the others we mentioned just now?”

HIPPIAS: But I did not mean that this applies to the gods.

SOCRATES: “Nor to the heroes either, it seems.”

HIPPIAS: Not those who were children of gods, at any rate.

SOCRATES: “Only those who were not?”

HIPPIAS: Yes, certainly.

SOCRATES: “In that case, according to your further account, apparently it is terrible, unholy and a

disgrace for the heroes Tantalus, Dardanus and Zethus, but beautiful for Pelops and the oth-

ers of like parentage.”

HIPPIAS: Yes, I think so.

SOCRATES: “Then, you are thinking something you did not state earlier,” he will say, “that burying

their parents, and being buried by their children, is sometimes, and for some people, a dis-

grace. More to the point, it is impossible, it seems, for this to become beautiful and to be

so for everyone. And so in this case, as with the previous cases, the girl and the pot, the

outcome is the same and, even more comically, it is beautiful for some and not beautiful

for others. And so far, today,” he will say, “you are still not able to answer the question you

are being asked, Socrates, about the beautiful. What is it?”

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A dithyramb was a hymn sung in honour of Dionysus.

With these words and their like, he will censure me, justifiably, if I reply to him in

this manner. Now, Hippias, for the most part he engages me in discourse that proceeds

largely in this way. But sometimes, as though he had taken pity on my inexperience and ill-

education, he himself offers me a suggestion by asking if such and such is the beautiful or

anything else he happens to be enquiring into and discussing.

HIPPIAS: What do you mean by this, Socrates?

SOCRATES: I will tell you. “Dearest Socrates,” he says, “stop giving answers like that, in that way,

for they are too facile and easy to refute. No, consider whether the following seems beautiful

to you, something we picked up just now when we said that gold is beautiful for anything

to which it is appropriate, and not beautiful for anything to which it is not appropriate, and

that the same goes for anything else to which this is added. Take this ‘appropriate’ itself,

and the nature of the appropriate itself, and consider whether this happens to be the beau-

tiful.” Now, I usually agree with such suggestions every time, for I do not know what to

say, but do you think the appropriate is beautiful?

HIPPIAS: Of course, entirely so, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Let us consider this in case we are being deceived.

HIPPIAS: Yes, we should consider it.

SOCRATES: Then look, do we say the appropriate is that which, when it is added, makes anything

in which it is present, appear beautiful, or be beautiful, or neither of these?

HIPPIAS: I think it is what makes it appear beautiful. For instance, when someone puts on clothes

or shoes that suit him, even if he is odd, he appears more beautiful.

SOCRATES: Then, if the appropriate does indeed make him appear more beautiful than he is, it

would be some deception about the beautiful and would not be what we are looking for,

Hippias, would it? For I presume we are looking for that by which all beautiful things are

beautiful, just as that by which all large things are large is by excess. For all large things

are large by this, and even if they do not appear large, it is necessary that they be large if

they exceed. So, in this way, we also say that the beautiful is that by which all things are

beautiful, whether they appear to be so or not. What could it be? Indeed, it could not be the

appropriate, for it makes something appear more beautiful than it is, according to your state-

ment, but does not allow them to appear as they are. But try to say what it is that makes

them be beautiful, as I said just now, whether they appear so or not, for if we are really

seeking the beautiful, this is what we are seeking.

HIPPIAS: But, Socrates, the appropriate makes things be beautiful and appear beautiful, once it is

present.

SOCRATES: Is it impossible for things that are actually beautiful not to appear to be beautiful, once,

at any rate, that which makes them appear so is present?

HIPPIAS: Impossible.

SOCRATES: So, shall we agree on this, Hippias, that everything that is actually beautiful, including

regulations and activities, are also thought to be beautiful, and always appear so to every-

one? Or is it the complete opposite? Are people in ignorance, and so there is more strife

and contention among individuals in private, and between cities in public, over these matters

than over anything else?

HIPPIAS: It is much more the latter, Socrates. They are in ignorance.

SOCRATES: But this presumably would not be so if the ‘appearing’ was added to them. And it would

have been added if the appropriate was indeed beautiful, and not only made things be beau-

tiful, but also made them appear so. So, if the appropriate is that which makes things be

beautiful, then it would be the beautiful, the object of our search, rather than that which

makes them appear beautiful. And what is more, if that which makes them appear so is the

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appropriate, it would not be the beautiful, the object of our search. For that makes them be

so, but the same thing could not possibly make them appear beautiful and be beautiful, or

anything else whatsoever. So, let us decide whether we think the appropriate is what makes

things be beautiful or makes them appear so.

HIPPIAS: It makes them appear so, or so it seems to me anyway, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Alas, Hippias, since the appropriate has proven to be something other than beautiful,

the knowledge of what precisely the beautiful is has departed and escaped us.

HIPPIAS: Yes, by Zeus, and in my view, very strangely.

SOCRATES:

However, my friend, we should not let it go just yet, for I still retain a hope that what

precisely the beautiful is, will be revealed.

HIPPIAS: Entirely so, Socrates, for it is not difficult to find. So I know quite well that if I were alone

for a while and were to consider this for myself, I could express it to you with the utmost

accuracy.

SOCRATES: Ah, Hippias, do not be boastful. You see how much trouble it has brought us already.

Take care that it does not get angry and run away all the more. But I am talking nonsense,

for you will easily find it I think, once you are on your own. But, by the gods, you should

seek it out in my presence and, if you like, search for it along with me as you were doing just

now. And if we find it, that will be a most beautiful achievement, and if we do not, I shall

accept my fate and you will discover it easily once you depart. And if we find it now, I cer-

tainly will not be a nuisance to you hereafter by enquiring as to what you found out when

you were by yourself. But take a look now at what you think the beautiful is. Well, I am

saying – and by the way, you should keep a close attentive eye on me in case I am talking

nonsense – well then, for us, let whatever is useful be beautiful. And what I had in mind when

I said this was as follows, we say that the eyes are beautiful, not the kind that seem to be so

but are unable to see, but those that are able to see and are useful for seeing. Is this so?

HIPPIAS: Yes.

SOCRATES: And don’t we also say that the whole body is beautiful in some way, in one case for

running, in another for wrestling? Doesn’t the same apply to all beautiful animals, a horse,

a cock or a quail, all equipment, and means of land transport, and ships and triremes on the

sea, all instruments used for music or in other skills, all activities and laws too? Are not

almost all of these referred to as beautiful in the same way? Looking at each of them, the

way each is by nature, the way it has been fashioned, the condition it is in, don’t we declare

that what is useful is beautiful, in the way that it is useful, for the purpose for which it is

useful and at the time it is useful, and whatever is useless in any of these ways is base? So

is that what you think too, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: I do.

SOCRATES: So, are we now right to say that, more than anything else, the useful happens to be

beautiful?

HIPPIAS: We are right indeed, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Now, is that which is capable of accomplishing something useful for the purpose for

which it is capable, and is that which is incapable, useless?

HIPPIAS: Certainly.

SOCRATES: So, capability is beautiful and incapability is base?

HIPPIAS: Emphatically so. Indeed, we have a lot of evidence that this is the case, Socrates, partic-

ularly from the political realm. For in political affairs, and in one’s own city, being capable

is the most beautiful thing of all, and being incapable is the most base of all.

SOCRATES: That is good. Well now, by the gods, Hippias, on this basis, is wisdom also the most

beautiful of all and is ignorance the most base of all?

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HIPPIAS: What do you think, Socrates?

SOCRATES: Let’s be careful, my friend, as I am cautious as to what precisely we are now saying.

HIPPIAS: What is there to be afraid of, Socrates, when the argument has proceeded so beautifully

this time?

SOCRATES: I wish it had. But please consider this along with me, could anyone do something that

he neither knew how to do, nor was at all capable of doing?

HIPPIAS: Not at all. How could he do what he is not capable of?

SOCRATES: Now, those who make mistakes and do bad work, and do so unintentionally, if they

were incapable of doing what they did, they could never have done it, could they?

HIPPIAS: Obviously.

SOCRATES: And yet, it is by capability that the capable are capable, for it is surely not by incapa-

bility.

HIPPIAS: Of course not.

SOCRATES: And are all those who do anything, capable of doing what they do?

HIPPIAS: Yes.

SOCRATES: But all men do much more bad than good, beginning in childhood, and they make mis-

takes unintentionally.

HIPPIAS: This is the case.

SOCRATES: What about this capability, and these things that are useful, but are useful for accom-

plishing something bad, shall we declare that these are beautiful, or do they fall far short?

HIPPIAS: I think they fall far short, Socrates.

SOCRATES: In that case, Hippias, for us it seems that the capable and the useful are not the beautiful.

HIPPIAS: They would be, Socrates, if they were capable of doing good and were useful for such

purposes.

SOCRATES: Then, the proposition that the capable and the useful are beautiful without qualification

is gone. Rather, what our soul wanted to say was that the capable, and the useful for doing

something good, is the beautiful. Was that it?

HIPPIAS: I think so.

SOCRATES: But surely this is beneficial, isn’t it?

HIPPIAS: Entirely so.

SOCRATES: And so the beautiful bodies, the beautiful regulations, the wisdom and whatever else

we just mentioned, are all beautiful because they are beneficial.

HIPPIAS: Obviously.

SOCRATES: So, the beneficial seems to us to be the beautiful, Hippias.

HIPPIAS: Entirely so, Socrates.

SOCRATES: But the beneficial is that which does good.

HIPPIAS: It is indeed.

SOCRATES: And that which does is none other than the cause. Is this so?

HIPPIAS: It is so.

SOCRATES: So the beautiful is the cause of the good.

HIPPIAS: It is indeed.

SOCRATES: Now, the cause, and what the cause is the cause of, are different, for presumably the

cause would not be a cause of a cause. But consider this, didn’t the cause turn out to be

doing?

HIPPIAS: Very much so.

SOCRATES: Now, what is done through the doer is that which arises, and not that which does?

HIPPIAS: This is the case.

SOCRATES: And that which arises is one thing and that which does is another.

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HIPPIAS: Yes.

SOCRATES: So, the cause is not the cause of a cause, but of that which arises because of it.

HIPPIAS: Certainly.

SOCRATES: So if the beautiful is a cause of the good, the good would arise because of the beautiful.

And it seems that is why we are eager for understanding and everything else that is beautiful,

because their product, their offspring, the good, is worthy of that eagerness. And from what

we are discovering, it looks as if the beautiful is, in form, a father of the good.

HIPPIAS: Yes, certainly, you are expressing that beautifully, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Well, is this beautifully expressed too. The father is not son, nor is the son father?

HIPPIAS: Beautifully, indeed.

SOCRATES: Nor is the cause that which arises, nor, for its part, is that which arises a cause.

HIPPIAS: That is true.

SOCRATES: By Zeus, best of men, then the beautiful is not good nor is the good beautiful, or do

you think this is possible based on what has just been said?

HIPPIAS: No, by Zeus, apparently not.

SOCRATES: Well, are we satisfied with that; do we wish to state that the beautiful is not good, nor

the good beautiful?

HIPPIAS: No, by Zeus, I am not at all satisfied.

SOCRATES: Indeed, by Zeus, Hippias, for me this is the least satisfactory argument of all those we

have formulated so far.

HIPPIAS: So it seems, indeed.

SOCRATES: Then, it looks to us as if the argument, that the beneficial and that which is useful and

capable of making something good is beautiful, is not the most beautiful argument, although

it appeared so a moment ago. No, this is not the case. It is even more ridiculous, if that is

possible, than those initial arguments in which we thought that the girl was the beautiful,

and each one of those we mentioned earlier.

HIPPIAS: So it seems.

SOCRATES: And I no longer know where I should turn, Hippias; I am perplexed. Do you have any-

thing to say?

HIPPIAS: Not at the moment, but as I said earlier, once I have considered this, I know quite well

that I shall make the discovery.

SOCRATES: But if you put this off, I do not think I can wait for you, I am so eager to know. And in

fact, I think I have actually found a way now. Yes, look. If we were to say that what makes

us pleased is beautiful, not including all pleasures, but those which come through hearing

and seeing, how might we fare under contention? Presumably beautiful people, Hippias,

and everything decorative, paintings and sculptures, delight us when we see them, provided

they are beautiful. Beautiful sounds and music in general, and speeches and storytelling

also have this same effect. And so, if we were to respond to this audacious person, “Oh

well-born gentleman, the beautiful is that which is pleasant through hearing and seeing”,

don’t you think we would restrain his audacity?

HIPPIAS: Well, Socrates, it seems to me, for the moment, anyway, that you are nicely stating what

the beautiful is.

SOCRATES: What about this, Hippias? Shall we state that beautiful activities and laws are beautiful

by being pleasant through hearing or seeing? Or do they possess some other form?

HIPPIAS: Perhaps these cases might escape the man’s notice, Socrates.

SOCRATES: By the dog, Hippias, not this man, a man before whom I would be most ashamed to

speak foolishly and pretend to be talking sense when I was talking nonsense.

HIPPIAS: Who is this man?

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SOCRATES: The son of Sophroniscus,

who would never allow me make these unexamined state-

ments so easily, or to speak as though I know what I do not know.

HIPPIAS: Anyway, now that you mention it, I also think myself that in the case of the laws this is

something different.

SOCRATES: Keep quiet, Hippias, we are in danger of thinking we have found another way out

when we have fallen into the same perplexity concerning the beautiful that we were in a

moment ago.

HIPPIAS: What do you mean by this, Socrates?

SOCRATES: I will tell you what is becoming evident to me, if I am actually talking sense. These

matters concerning laws and activities may perhaps prove not to be outside of perception

that occurs to us through hearing and seeing. Let us, rather, persist with this argument that

what is pleasant through these is beautiful, without making the laws a central issue. But if

either the person I am speaking of, or anyone else at all were to ask us, “What is this, Hippias

and Socrates, are you distinguishing what is pleasant in the way you describe as beautiful

from the pleasant, and are you saying that what is pleasant based upon other perceptions,

eating, drinking, sexual activity and everything else of that sort, is not beautiful? Or are

you saying there is nothing pleasant or any pleasures at all in the likes of these, or in any-

thing else, except seeing and hearing?” What shall we say, Hippias?

HIPPIAS: I presume we shall state emphatically, Socrates, that there are very great pleasures in the

other cases too.

SOCRATES: “Why, then,” he will say, “would you take away this name, and deprive them of being

beautiful, although they are pleasures no less than the others?” We shall reply, “Because

there is no one who would not laugh at us if we were to say that to eat is not pleasant, but

beautiful, and that a pleasant smell is not pleasant, but beautiful. When it comes to sexual

activity everyone would argue against us, I presume, that it is extremely pleasant, but if

someone is to do it at all, it must be done so that no one can see, it being most base to behold.

Once we have said all this, Hippias, he would probably reply, “I too understand that

because people do not think they are beautiful, you are ashamed, and have been for some

time, to state that these pleasures are beautiful. But I was not asking you what it is that

seems to be beautiful to most people, but what is beautiful.”

Well, I think we will just say what we proposed, “The part of the pleasant that arises

by seeing or by hearing, is beautiful.” But do you have anything still to add to the formu-

lation, Hippias, or should we also say something else?

HIPPIAS: In the light of what has been said, Socrates, we need not say anything else.

SOCRATES: “Well, you are speaking beautifully,” he will say. “Now, if what is pleasant through

seeing and hearing is, in fact, beautiful, any of the pleasures that are not like this would

obviously not be beautiful, would they?” Shall we agree?

HIPPIAS: Yes.

SOCRATES: “Now, is that which is pleasant through seeing,” he will say, “pleasant through seeing

and hearing, or is that which is pleasant through hearing, pleasant through hearing and see-

ing?” “Not at all,” we shall reply, “what is so through one would not be so through both,

for that is what we think you are saying. But we said that either of these just by itself would

be beautiful, and so would both.” Shan’t we reply in this way?

HIPPIAS: Very much so.

SOCRATES: “Well then,” he will say, “does anything pleasant differ from anything else that is pleas-

ant, by this, by being pleasant? I am not asking if any pleasure is greater or smaller, or more

or less, but if any of the pleasures differ by this alone, by one being a pleasure and the other

not a pleasure?” We do not think so, do we?

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HIPPIAS: We do not.

SOCRATES: “In that case,” he will say, “did you not select these pleasures from the other pleasures

on some other basis than the fact that they are pleasures, by seeing something in both of

them, that they possess something different from the others in the light of which you say

they are beautiful? For presumably pleasure through seeing is not beautiful for this reason,

just because it is through seeing. Indeed, if this was the reason why it was beautiful, then

the other one, the pleasure through hearing, would never be beautiful. So it is not pleasure

through seeing.” Shall we say that this is true?

HIPPIAS: Yes, we shall say so.

SOCRATES: “Neither, for its part, is the pleasure through hearing beautiful for this reason, just

because it is through hearing, for in that case the pleasure through seeing would never be

beautiful. So it is not pleasure through hearing.” Shall we say that the man is speaking the

truth, Hippias, when he says this?

HIPPIAS: The truth.

SOCRATES: “And yet, they are both beautiful, as you say”. Do we say so?

HIPPIAS: We say so.

SOCRATES: “Then they possess something that is the same, something that makes them be beautiful,

something common, that is present in common to them both, and to each of them individ-

ually. For presumably there is no other way they could both, and each, be beautiful.” Answer

me as if you were answering him.

HIPPIAS: I think it is as you say it is. That is my answer.

SOCRATES: So, if both the pleasures have some characteristic that each does not have, they would

not be beautiful by that characteristic.

HIPPIAS: But how could that happen, Socrates, that there be some characteristic or other that neither

of them possesses, when this characteristic which neither of them possesses is a character-

istic of both of them?

SOCRATES: Yo u do not think it could happen?

HIPPIAS: If I did, I would be overtaken by considerable inexperience of the nature of these matters

and the terminology of our present discussions.

SOCRATES: How pleasant, Hippias. Well then, maybe I am in danger of thinking I see that something

is the case, something you say is impossible, when I am really seeing nothing.

HIPPIAS: It is not that you are in danger of this, Socrates. No, you are all too ready to see things

amiss.

SOCRATES: Well, many things of this kind are becoming evident before my soul, but I am not per-

suaded by them because they are not evident to you, a man who has made more money out

of wisdom than any man alive, but to me, who, so far, has made nothing. And I am con-

cerned, my friend, that you may be playing games with me and deceiving me intentionally

when they are so evident to me in such numbers and with such force.

HIPPIAS: No one will know more beautifully than yourself, Socrates, whether I am playing games

or not, if you would only attempt to say what it is that is becoming evident to you. For it

will be evident that you are talking nonsense, since you will never find that a characteristic

which neither you nor I possess is possessed by both of us.

SOCRATES: What do you mean, Hippias? Perhaps you are talking sense, but I do not understand.

But listen to me say with greater clarity what I want to say. For it appears to me that some-

thing I am not characterised as being, something I am not and you are not, is able to char-

acterise both of us. What is more, there are others that both of us together are characterised

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Socrates himself is the son of Sophroniscus.

as being, that neither of us is, individually.

HIPPIAS: You seem to be giving outrageous answers again, Socrates, even more so than your answer

a moment ago. Yes, think about it. If both of us were just, wouldn’t each of us be so too, or

if each was unjust wouldn’t both also be so, or if both were healthy, wouldn’t each be so

too? Or if each of us is tired or wounded or has been struck, or been affected in any other

way at all, again, wouldn’t both of us be affected in this way too? Then again, if we were

both made of gold or silver or ivory, or, if you like, we were well-born, or wise, or revered,

or aged, or indeed, young, or had any other human characteristic you please, isn’t it

absolutely necessary that each of us be so too?

SOCRATES: Entirely so.

HIPPIAS: The fact is, Socrates, you are not considering these matters as wholes, nor do those with

whom you usually conduct your dialogues; you test the beautiful and each of the things

that are, by taking them individually and breaking them into pieces in words. Because of

this, you are unaware of how naturally great and continuous are the bodies of being. And

you are now unaware of this to such an extent that you think there is something, be it a

characteristic or an essence that applies to both at the same time but not to each individually,

or again, applies to each but not to both, so irrational, unreflective, simplistic and unthinking

is your approach.

SOCRATES: That is how matters stand with us, Hippias, as people are always repeating in the

proverb, it is not according to a person’s wishes but according to his ability. But you are

our benefactor with your constant rebukes, since even now, before you rebuked us for our

simplistic approach... shall I go on with the presentation and state what we have in mind

about them, or shall I not speak?

HIPPIAS: You will be speaking to a man of knowledge, Socrates. For I know the approach of every-

body who is concerned with speeches. Nevertheless, if it pleases you more, please speak.

SOCRATES: Yes, indeed, it is more pleasant. For, best of men, we were so stupid before you said all

this, that we held an opinion about me and you, that although each of us is one, both of us

together would not be what each of us is individually, because we are not one but two. That

is how simple minded we were. But now at this stage, we have been taught otherwise by

you, that if we are both two, each of us must also be two. Yet, if each is one, both must also

be one. Indeed, according to Hippias, by the continuous theory of being, it cannot be oth-

erwise, but whatever both may be, each must also be, and whatever each may be, both must

be. So I have now been persuaded by you; that is where I stand. But first, remind me

Hippias, are we one, you and I, or are you two, and am I also two?

HIPPIAS: What do you mean, Socrates?

SOCRATES: Exactly what I say, for I am afraid to speak plainly to you because you get angry with

me whenever you are of the opinion that you are talking sense. In any case, tell me more;

isn’t each of us one, and characterised in this way as being one?

HIPPIAS: Absolutely.

SOCRATES: If this is the case, would each of us also be odd-numbered, or do you not consider one

to be an odd number?

HIPPIAS: I do consider it to be.

SOCRATES: So, being two, are we both also odd-numbered?

HIPPIAS: That could not be so, Socrates.

SOCRATES: Then we are both even-numbered. Is that so?

HIPPIAS: Absolutely.

SOCRATES: So it is not the case that because we are both even-numbered, each of us is also even-

numbered for that reason?

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Hippias Major, David Horan translation, 10 Nov 25

HIPPIAS: Of course not.

SOCRATES: So it is not absolutely necessary, as you said just now, that what both are, each also is,

and what each is, both also are.

HIPPIAS: Not in such cases as these, but it is so in the cases I mentioned earlier.

SOCRATES: That is sufficient, Hippias. Indeed, even this is satisfactory. It appears to be so in some

cases and is not so in others. Yes, in fact, I said, if you recall how this discussion began,

that pleasure through seeing or hearing would not be beautiful by this, by that which char-

acterises each of them but not both, or both of them but not each. No, because you agreed

that they both and each are beautiful, they are beautiful by that by which both and each are

beautiful. Because of this I thought that if both are indeed beautiful, it is by the essence that

applies to both that they should be beautiful, and not by the essence that is missing from

one or the other. And I still think so now. But tell me, as if starting all over again, if, in fact,

pleasure through seeing and pleasure through hearing are both and each beautiful, doesn’t

that which makes them beautiful apply to them both and to each?

HIPPIAS: Entirely so.

SOCRATES: Now, is it because each and both are pleasure, is that why they would be beautiful? Or,

in that case, would all other pleasures be no less beautiful than these? For, if you remember,

they proved to be pleasure nonetheless.

HIPPIAS: I remember.

SOCRATES: But because they operate through seeing and hearing, that is why it was said that they

are beautiful.

HIPPIAS: Yes, that’s how it was expressed.

SOCRATES: But consider whether I am speaking the truth, for it was said, as I recall, that this ‘pleas-

ant’ was beautiful, not all of it, but that which operates through seeing and hearing.

HIPPIAS: True.

SOCRATES: Now, doesn’t this characteristic apply to both but not to each? For, presumably, as was

stated previously, each of them is not through both, but both are through both, and each is

not. Is this the case?

HIPPIAS: It is.

SOCRATES: So it is not by this that each of them is beautiful, by what does not apply to each, for

‘both’ does not apply to each, and so according to the hypothesis it is permissible to say

that they are both beautiful, but not permissible to say that each is so. Or what should we

say? Isn’t this necessarily the case?

HIPPIAS: Apparently.

SOCRATES: So should we say that both are beautiful, and yet say that each is not?

HIPPIAS: What’s stopping us?

SOCRATES: I think that what is stopping us, my friend, is that for us, there were attributes that

applied to particulars in such a way that, if they were attributed to both they were also attrib-

uted to each, and if to each, also to both, all the attributes you listed. Is this so?

HIPPIAS: Yes.

SOCRATES: But for the attributes that I listed this is not so, and these included ‘the each’ itself, and

‘the both’. Is this the case?

HIPPIAS: It is.

SOCRATES: Well, Hippias, to which of these does it seem to you that the beautiful belong? Does it

belong with the group you mentioned? If I am strong and so are you, so also are we both;

and if I am just and so are you, so also are we both; and if both are so, each is also so. In

this way too, if I am beautiful and so are you, so also are we both; and if we are both, is

each also so? Then there are the examples I said were occurring to me, why cannot it be

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like those? For instance, if certain things, both together are even, each might perhaps be

odd or might perhaps be even; then again, when each is inexpressible, then both combined

may perhaps be expressible, or may perhaps be inexpressible; and there are countless other

examples like this. Well, to which of these two do you assign the beautiful? Does it seem

to you as it does to me? For I think it highly irrational that both of us together are beautiful

while each of us is not, or that each of us is so, while both together are not so, or anything

else of this kind. Do you choose this way, just like me, or the other way?

HIPPIAS: This way, Socrates.

SOCRATES: You are doing well, Hippias, since we may also be released from a more extensive

enquiry, for if the beautiful belongs with these, then what is pleasant through seeing and

hearing would no longer be the beautiful. For that which is through seeing and hearing

makes both together beautiful, but not each; but this is impossible, as you and I agree,

Hippias.

HIPPIAS: Yes, we agree.

SOCRATES: So it is impossible for what is pleasant through seeing and hearing to be beautiful, since

if this becomes beautiful it presents us with one of the impossibilities.

HIPPIAS: This is the case.

SOCRATES: “Then, since you failed this time,” he will say, “tell me again, from the beginning, what

you say this is, this beautiful that applies to both the pleasures, because of which you

esteemed them above the others and called them beautiful.” Well, I think we have to say,

Hippias, that they are the most harmless of the pleasures and the best, both together and

each individually. Or can you suggest another way in which they excel over the others?

HIPPIAS: Not at all. Indeed, they really are best.

SOCRATES: “So, then,” he will say, “are you stating that the beautiful is beneficial pleasure?” “We

seem to be,” shall be my reply. And you?

HIPPIAS: Me too.

SOCRATES: “Now, isn’t beneficial,” he will say, “what makes something good? And what makes

and what is made proved just now to be different, and so our argument goes back to the

previous one, for the good would not be beautiful, nor would the beautiful be good, if each

of them is indeed different.” “Entirely so,” we shall reply, Hippias, if we are of sound mind,

for it is not lawful to disagree with someone who speaks aright.

HIPPIAS: But, Socrates, what do you think this all adds up to? The fact is that these are scrapings

and clippings of discourse, as I said earlier, little subdivisions. But what is beautiful and

really worthwhile is being able to present a speech well and beautifully in a court of law, a

council chamber or before any other authority to whom you might present a speech, and

having persuaded them, to depart bearing not some utterly trivial prize but the greatest prize

of all, safety for yourself and for your own property and for your friends.

To this one should cleave, bidding farewell to these trivial discussions lest one look

like an utter fool by engaging in babbling nonsense, as you are doing now.

SOCRATES: Friend Hippias, you are indeed blessed because you know what a man should practise,

and you have engaged in the practices yourself, so you say. While I, by contrast, am gripped,

it seems, by some supernatural occurrence, and so I am constantly wandering and perplexed,

and once I demonstrate my own perplexity to you wise folk, I get trampled in the mire by

yourselves again every time I demonstrate it. For I am told what you have just told me, that

I am busying myself with simplistic trivialities that are of no value. Then again, if I am ever

persuaded by you and say what you say – that it is best by far to be able to present a speech

well and beautifully in a court of law or in any other gathering – I hear nothing but abuse

from this man who is constantly refuting me, and from some others hereabouts. He, in fact,

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Hippias Major, David Horan translation, 10 Nov 25

happens to be my closest relative and he lives in the same house, so whenever I arrive back

at my own home and he hears me saying all this, he asks if I am not ashamed at being so

audacious as to discourse on the subject of beautiful activities when I have been so con-

spicuously refuted in relation to the beautiful that I obviously do not even know what on

earth it is.

“Yet how will you know,” he will say, “who does or does not present a speech or

any other action whatsoever beautifully, when the beautiful is unknown to you? And when

you are in such a state, do you think you are better off alive or dead?” So, as I say, that is

what happens to me. I get abused and criticised by yourselves and abused by him. But, in

fact, I probably need to endure all this, since, strangely, it may be beneficial. So I think,

Hippias, that I have been benefited by this interaction with both of you, for I think I now

understand the precise meaning of the proverb, “Whatever is beautiful is difficult.”

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