Book 8 - Platonic Foundation

Laws

––––– BOOK VIII –––––

ATHENIAN: The next step for us, with the help of the oracles from Delphi, is to arrange and establish

by law which sacrifices, offered to which gods, would be better and more agreeable to the

city. The timing of these and their number would, for the most part, be largely up to our-

selves to legislate.

CLINIAS: Yes, in the case of their number that is quite likely.

ATHENIAN: Then let us deal with their number first. Let there be no fewer than three hundred and

sixty-five festivals, so that there is always at least one official offering a sacrifice on behalf

of the city, its people or its property, to some god or daimon. Interpreters, priests, priestesses

and prophets are to gather together, along with the guardians of the law, and make appro-

priate arrangements for whatever the lawgiver has inevitably omitted. And, indeed, these

very people should act as judges of what has actually been omitted. And the law, in fact,

will say that there are to be twelve festivals to the twelve gods after whom the twelve tribes

would each be named, involving monthly sacrifices offered to each of these gods, with cho-

ruses and competitions in music and gymnastics being dedicated, as appropriate, both to

the gods themselves and the particular seasons of the year. In the case of the women’s fes-

tivals, they are to determine those from which men should be excluded and those they may

attend. What is more, the rituals associated with the gods of the underworld, and those asso-

ciated with the gods who should be called heavenly, are to be kept separate and not be mixed

together, allocating them by law to the twelfth month, sacred to the god of the underworld,

Pluto. And there should be no revulsion among military men towards a god of this sort,

who should, rather, be revered as being consistently best for the human race. For I would

seriously maintain that communion of soul with body is not better in any way than its dis-

solution in death.

Furthermore, those who are going to make these distinctions in a satisfactory manner

need to bear the following facts in mind: no city comparable to ours is to be found nowa-

days, either in terms of the amount of leisure time afforded, or the availability of life’s

necessities; and, like an individual human being, the city should live well. And to live hap-

pily it is first necessary that we ourselves neither do injustice, nor suffer injustice at the

hands of others. The first of these requirements is not hugely difficult, but it is extremely

difficult to acquire the ability to suffer no injustice, and it is not possible to have this ability

perfectly except by becoming perfectly good. The same principle also applies to the city; if

it becomes good, its life is peaceful; if bad, its life is a battle, internally and externally.

Since this is more or less how matters stand, everyone should train for warfare, not

in time of war, but in time of peace. So a city possessed of intelligence should conduct mil-

itary exercises for at least one day each month, or more, as the rulers see fit, paying no heed

to the weather, be it hot or cold. Whenever the rulers decide to march them all, men, women

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1,182 | LAWS VIII – 828a–829b

Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

and children must go. On other occasions they may call upon only part of the population.

They should also be continually devising noble games to accompany the sacrifices so that

there may be some festive battles imitating the real-life military battles as best they can. At

each of these they should award prizes for victory and for excellence, and they should com-

pose speeches of praise or of censure for one another according to how each person fares

in the contests, or, indeed, in life generally, decorating whoever is deemed to be best, and

censuring anyone who falls short.

Not everyone is to be a composer of such speeches. Firstly, they should be more than

fifty years of age, and they should not be the sort of people who have attained an acceptable

proficiency in poetry and music but have never performed a single noble or illustrious deed

themselves. The compositions of people who are themselves good and who are honoured

in the city for the noble works they produce, these are the songs that should be sung, even

if they are not naturally musical. The selection of these composers shall lie with the educator

and the other guardians of the law, who shall allow them the following privilege: they alone

are to be allowed freedom of expression in music. No one else is to have such licence, nor

should anyone dare to sing an unapproved song that has not been judged by the guardians

of the law, even if it be sweeter than the hymns of Thamyras and Orpheus.

All that are

allowed are those that have been duly dedicated to the gods, and those composed by good

men, which present censure and praise, and have been adjudged to do so in a measured

way. And I say that the same directions relating to military activity and freedom of expres-

sion in poetry should apply in like manner to women and men.

The lawgiver should reflect and reason with himself as follows. “Now that my prepa-

rations are in place for the city as a whole, what sort of people am I nurturing here? Won’t

they be competitors in the greatest conflicts of all, where they will encounter vast numbers

of opponents?” “Very much so” would be the correct response. Well then, suppose we were

nurturing boxers or all-in-fighters or competitors in some other contests like these, would

we go into the actual contest itself without practising fighting with someone else on a daily

basis beforehand? Surely if we were boxers, we would have been learning to fight for very

many days in advance of the competition, and working hard at imitating all the moves we

intended to rely upon when we eventually fought it out for victory, and getting as close as

possible, in training, to the real thing. Instead of training gloves, we would wear match

gloves so as to practise punching and avoiding punches as best we could. And if we had a

major problem finding people to train with, would we be so bold as to hang up a lifeless

dummy and practise on that, or would we be afraid that some fools might laugh at us for

doing so? And if we were ever devoid of opponents, animate or inanimate, and were on our

own without training partners, would that deter us from literally fighting with our own shad-

ows? Or what else, besides shadow-boxing, would you call this sort of practising with your

own hands?

CLINIAS: The very name you gave it, stranger, there isn’t really an alternative.

ATHENIAN: Well then, will the fighting force of our city dare to embark every time upon the greatest

of all contests worse prepared than contestants of this sort as they do battle for their lives,

their children, their wealth and the entire city? And is the lawgiver to be afraid that these

training exercises against one another may seem ridiculous to some? Is he, then, to refrain

from enacting laws requiring military activity, if possible, on a daily basis, at least on a

small scale without weapons, directing all training, whether in groups or not, to these ends?

829 c

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830 a

830 b

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LAWS VIII – 829c–830d | 1,183

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Thamyras was a mythical singer who challenged the Muses to a competition and lost. Orpheus was legendary for his

ability to charm any living thing, and even non-living things like rocks, with his sweet music.

Won’t he also order exercises of another kind, major and minor, to be held at least once a

month, involving various contests with one another throughout the entire territory, in which

people compete in capturing certain positions and laying ambushes, thus imitating warfare

in every aspect? These trials have a way of revealing who is spirited and who is not, through

fighting with actual combat gloves and missiles that are as close as possible to the real thing,

making use of weapons that are somewhat dangerous so that their game may not be entirely

devoid of fear but involve some threats. Then, by correctly awarding honour to one and

dishonour to the other, the lawgiver would enable the entire city to be of service in the true

life-long contest. And, indeed, if someone loses his life in the process, the slaying is to be

regarded as an accident, and once the killer has been purified in accordance with the law,

his hands may be pronounced clean. The lawgiver’s view will be that if a few people should

perish, others who are just as good will be born to replace them, whereas if fear itself should

perish, so to speak, he will not find a test to distinguish the better people from the worse in

all such cases, and for the city, that is a far greater evil than the other one.

CLINIAS: We agree with you, stranger. Measures like these should be enshrined in law, and every

city should practise them.

ATHENIAN: Now, do all of us understand the reason why such choristry and competition do not exist

at all in cities nowadays, except perhaps on a very small scale? Would we say it is because

of the ignorance of the general population and the people who institute laws for them?

CLINIAS: Perhaps.

ATHENIAN: Not at all, Clinias, bless you! We should insist that there are two causes that are well

capable of bringing this about.

CLINIAS: What are they?

ATHENIAN: One originates in the passion for wealth, which keeps a person so busy that he cares

for nothing else besides his own personal possessions. Once the soul of every citizen

depends upon these, it would never be capable of having any care for anything else besides

short-term advantage, everyone, personally, being extremely keen to learn and practise any

subject or activity that leads to this objective, and laughing at any others. This, we must

insist, is one particular cause of a city’s refusal to take this or any other noble and good

pursuit seriously. Indeed, because of this insatiable desire for gold and silver, everyone is

prepared to resort to any skill or device, noble or unseemly, provided it is going to make

him rich. He will perform any act, holy or unholy, even an utterly disgraceful one, without

scruple, as long as he is able to provide himself, like some wild beast, with total, unrestricted

satisfaction in eating, drinking and lust, in endless variety.

CLINIAS: Correct.

ATHENIAN: Well, this cause, the one I am speaking of, may be set down as one that prevents cities

from properly practising military activities or any other noble pursuits, and turns people

who are naturally well behaved into traders, merchants and out-and-out servants, while

making pirates, thieves, temple robbers, thugs and tyrants of the courageous types, although

much of the time they are not bad-natured but unfortunate.

CLINIAS: In what way?

ATHENIAN: Unfortunate in the extreme. How else could I describe people who are compelled to go

through life with a constant hunger in their own souls?

CLINIAS: Well, that’s one cause. What’s the second cause, stranger?

ATHENIAN: It is good that you remind me.

CLINIAS: Yes, according to you, one cause is the insatiable lifelong search which keeps people

busy, and gets in the way of the proper practice of military exercises. So be it. Now tell us

the second cause.

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831 a

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Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

ATHENIAN: I expect you think that I am delaying and won’t tell you because I am at a loss.

CLINIAS: No, but you do seem to us, out of a sort of hatred for the character you are describing, to

be castigating him more than is required by the present argument.

ATHENIAN: An excellent rebuke, strangers. It seems you want to hear what comes next.

CLINIAS: Speak on.

ATHENIAN: I maintain that the causes lie in the ‘non-constitutions’ which have been mentioned so

many times in the preceding arguments, the democratic, the oligarchic and the tyrannical.

In truth, not one of these is a political system; indeed, they may all quite correctly be called

‘states-of-faction’. None of them involves willing rule over willing subjects, but willing

rule over the unwilling, always with some degree of force, and the ruler, out of fear of his

subject, will never willingly allow him to become noble, wealthy, strong, courageous or in

any way military. Now these, more or less, are the two main causes of all evils, at least of

the evils we are now considering. However, the political system for which we are now

enacting laws has eliminated both. For it presumably allows the most free time and its cit-

izens are free from one another, and under these laws, I believe, they would be least fond

of wealth. Consequently, it is reasonable to expect that of all political systems, only the one

arranged in this way would make allowance for the military education we have set out,

which is also an amusement, as described appropriately in our account.

CLINIAS: Good.

ATHENIAN: After all this, shouldn’t we declare once and for all, regarding athletic contests in gen-

eral, that those that are militarily useful should be pursued and prizes for victory should be

awarded, while those that are not should be set aside? It is best to begin by stating which

these are and by enacting laws. And we should first provide for contests in running and

rapidity in general, shouldn’t we?

CLINIAS: We should.

ATHENIAN: Now, bodily agility in general of the feet or the hands is more useful than anything else

for military purposes. In flight and in pursuit, fleetness of foot is required, while in a set

fight at close quarters calling for endurance and strength, quick hands are needed.

CLINIAS: Indeed.

ATHENIAN: But in the absence of weapons, neither of these has its full effect.

CLINIAS: No, how could they?

ATHENIAN: So, at our competitions, the herald, as he does nowadays, shall first call the short dis-

tance runner, and he shall come in wearing his armour, and we shall award no prize to a

competitor without armour. First then, the competitor who runs one stade in full armour

shall enter, second comes the contestant who runs twice that distance, third is the one who

runs the length of the horse track, fourth the chariot-course runner, and then fifth is the one

in heavier armour whom we shall despatch, in the first instance, to run sixty stades to some

temple of Ares and back again. We shall call him a hoplite, and he shall follow a smooth

course, while his rival, an archer wearing full archer’s gear, must run one hundred stades

through hills and varied countryside to a temple of Apollo and Artemis. And having set up

the competitions, we shall wait until the contestants return and award the prizes to the victors

in each event.

CLINIAS: Rightly so.

ATHENIAN: Then, let us devise contests in these three classes – one for children, one for youths

and one for men. And let’s set the course distance for youths at two-thirds of the full length,

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832 e

833 a

833 b

833 c

LAWS VIII – 832c–833c | 1,185

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One Greek stade was roughly equivalent to 180 metres (600 feet). So a distance of sixty stades is 10.8km (6.75 miles)

and a distance of one hundred stades is 18km (11.25 miles).

and for children at half the length, whether they compete as archers or as hoplites. In the

case of females, girls who have not yet attained womanhood are to run one stade, two

stades, the horse track and the chariot course, without gear, on the course itself. From the

age of thirteen, while awaiting marriage between the ages of eighteen and twenty, they

may still be involved, but they must put on the proper gear when entering these races. So

let these be the arrangements concerning running for men and women. As for events

involving strength, instead of wrestling and the like, the ‘heavy’ contest of today, let’s

arrange fights in armour, one against one, two against two, up to a maximum of ten con-

tending against ten. What must be accepted and what may be done to win a victory, and

the points awarded, should be decided based upon current practice in wrestling where the

relevant officials regulate what constitutes good wrestling and what does not. So we, in

like manner, should call upon experts in armour fighting and ask them to help us to make

laws about who rightly deserves victory in these fights, what he must do or avoid, and,

similarly, the rules for deciding the loser. Let these regulations also apply to females until

they are married.

For boxing in the pancration,

we should substitute general combat using missiles;

fighting with bows, light shields, javelins and stones thrown by hand or with slings. For

these too we must make regulations, awarding the honours of victory to the one who best

conforms to the rules of these competitions.

After these should be the regulation of horse-racing. But we don’t have much use

for horses, nor are there many of them, certainly not in Crete at any rate, and so their breed-

ing and racing is inevitably taken less seriously. As for chariots, there is no one at all who

keeps them, nor would anyone have any significant ambition in that direction. Consequently,

to set up a competition of this sort, contrary to local custom, would not be an intelligent

course of action, nor would it seem so. But if we were to institute prizes for horse-riding on

colts, young horses and full-grown animals, we would be adapting the sport of horsemanship

to the nature of the country. For these particular competitors, then, let there be competitive

contests established by law, and let judgement both of the actual courses themselves, and

of the competitors bearing arms, be entrusted jointly to the company commanders and cav-

alry commanders. For competitors who are unarmed it would not be right to set up compe-

titions

by law, either in this case of horsemanship, or for the athletes. For a Cretan there

is some advantage in being a mounted archer or javelin-thrower, so let there be sportive

rivalry and competition in these activities too. Yet there is no merit in forcing women, by

laws and regulations, to be involved in these contests. But if, due to their earlier education,

a habit has developed whereby their nature accepts such involvement when they are children

or young women, let them do so and let there be no criticism.

Well now, at this stage the subject of competition and instruction in gymnastics has

been concluded, including our endeavours in relation to contests and day-to-day teaching.

Similarly, too, in the case of music, most aspects have been dealt with, but the matter of

rhapsodes and anything associated with them, and any choral competitions required at our

festivals, shall be put in order once the months, days and years have been assigned to the

gods and their associates, also determining whether the festivals should be held every two

years or every four years, or whatever interval or manner the gods may suggest. On these

occasions we should expect the music competitions to be held, in turn, as set down jointly

by judges of the contests, the educator of the young, and the guardians of the law, at a meet-

ing concerning these very matters where they act as lawgivers, determining when, by whom,

and with whom the contests will be instituted in the case of all choruses and dances. The

original lawgiver has frequently declared what each of these should be like with respect to

833 d

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834 a

834 b

834 c

834 d

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1,186 | LAWS VIII – 833d–835a

Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

their words, melody, and harmony combined with rhythm and dance. These secondary leg-

islators should follow his lead, allocating the contests appropriately to each sacrifice at fit-

ting times, thus providing the city with festivals to celebrate.

Now, it is not difficult to recognise how to give a legal structure to these regulations

and others like them. Nor indeed would changing them this way and that be greatly to the

advantage or detriment of the city. But there is a matter that makes a difference, a significant

difference, about which it is difficult to persuade people. In fact, it is really a task for a god,

if it were somehow possible for guidance to come directly from such a source. But, for now,

what is needed is probably some courageous person who, valuing frankness above all else,

will say what he believes to be best for the city and its citizens, someone who, surrounded

by corrupted souls, prescribes what is appropriate and becoming to the constitution, speak-

ing in opposition to the most powerful desires of all, with no one else to help as he stands

alone, by reason alone.

CLINIAS: What point are you making now, stranger? We don’t understand you so far.

ATHENIAN: That is not unexpected. In that case, I will try to explain myself to you more clearly.

Indeed, when my argument arrived at the topic of education, I pictured young men and

women consorting with one another in a friendly manner, and, not unexpectedly, I became

fearful as I considered how one is to manage a city like this in which young men and

women, well reared, are exempt from the hard work which does so much to curb the pas-

sions, and for whom sacrifices, festivals and choruses are their lifelong concern. In a city

like this, how precisely will the young refrain from those desires that so often plunge so

many into ruin, desires from which reason, in an effort to become law, directs them to

refrain? Now, if our previous regulations as enacted were to curtail most of these desires,

that would not be surprising. Indeed, the prohibition on becoming excessively wealthy is

of considerable benefit in promoting sound-mindedness, and their entire education includes

regulations adapted for similar purposes. What’s more, the eye of the officials, having

been trained to look nowhere else and to be constantly vigilant towards the young people

themselves, brings an element of measure to their desires in general, insofar as this is

humanly possible.

However, when it comes to the loves of children of either sex, or of men for women

or women for men, which have had all sorts of consequences for individuals and for entire

cities, how may he guard against this and what remedy is to be found to avoid such a danger

in each of these cases? This question, Clinias, is not at all easy to answer. And, indeed,

Crete in general, and Sparta too, have given us reasonable assistance in framing laws that

are unusual compared to most, but when it comes to these loves, I have to say, just between

ourselves, that the position is the exact opposite. What if someone, following the natural

order, should institute the law previous to that of your lawmaker, Laius,

and maintain that

it is not right for males to consort with males, old or young, in the same way as they have

intercourse with females? In the process, he might cite the natural habits of animals and

point out that in such situations males do not have contact with males because this is con-

trary to nature, and he would then perhaps have a persuasive argument even though this

does not conform to the practices of your cities. What is more, the matter which, according

to us, demands the utmost vigilance of the lawgiver, does not fit in well with these practices

835 b

835 c

835 d

835 e

836 a

836 b

836 c

836 d

LAWS VIII – 835b–836d | 1,187

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The pancration was a form of combat that combined wrestling and boxing, but also allowed kicking and choking. It

was not dissimilar to contemporary mixed martial arts.

Laius was a legendary king of Thebes who kidnapped and raped Chrysippus, the young son of King Pelops. As a result

of this incident, Laius is cited as having instituted the practice of homosexual pederastic love.

of yours. For we are constantly enquiring as to which enactments are conducive to excel-

lence and which are not.

So, come on then, suppose we were to agree that this practice is noble and not at all

disgraceful, and were now to legislate accordingly. What consequence would follow in

terms of excellence? Will it engender the quality of courage in the soul of the one who is

seduced, or develop some form of sound-mindedness in the soul of the seducer? Surely no

one will ever believe this. Quite the contrary; everyone will censure the softness of a person

who yields to pleasures and is incapable of mastering them, and won’t they also rebuke the

man who imitates a woman for his very resemblance thereto? This being the case, who on

earth will ever legislate for such a practice? Hardly anyone, not if they have any notion of

what true law is. So how are we to maintain that this is all true? If anyone is to think aright

about these matters, he will need to discern the nature of friendship, of desire too, and of

what is referred to as love. For there are these two, and from both, another third form arises,

but a single name encompasses the three and this gives rise to all sorts of perplexity and

obscurity.

CLINIAS: In what way?

ATHENIAN: We refer, as you know, to the friendship of like for like and of equal for equal in respect

of excellence, and indeed of the needy for the wealthy, despite being opposite in kind. And

whenever either friendship becomes intense, we call it love.

CLINIAS: And rightly so.

ATHENIAN: Well, the affection between opposites is fierce and wild, and among ourselves it is sel-

dom mutual, while affection between like for like is gentle, mutual and lifelong. When there

is a mixture of these two, firstly, it is not easy to appropriate what precisely someone who

has this third love wants for himself, and secondly, he is perplexed as he is dragged in oppo-

site directions by one or the other, one encouraging him to avail himself of the delight,

the other forbidding him. For one person loves the body, and being hungry to pluck the

ripe fruit of its delights, he encourages himself to have his fill without showing the least

regard for the soul of the beloved or its condition. The other man, however, regarding de-

sire of the body as a diversion, contemplates rather than loves; he really desires soul with

soul, and regards the sating of body by body as wantonness. Respecting and revering

sound-mindedness, courage, magnanimity and wisdom, he would wish to live in constant

purity with his pure beloved. The kind of love which is a mixture of both is the one we

have just described as the third love. Now, since there are three of them, should the law

prohibit all of them and prevent their occurrence among us, or is it obvious that the one

that loves excellence and wants the young person to be as excellent as possible is what

we would like to have in our city, while prohibiting the other two if this were possible?

What is our position here, my dear Megillus?

MEGILLUS: I say, stranger, that you have just spoken very well in every respect on these matters.

ATHENIAN: It seems, my friend, as indeed I suspected, that I meet with your approval. The law

among yourselves in Sparta, and what it thinks about such matters, is something I don’t

need to investigate, I need only accept your approval of my argument. After this, on another

occasion, I shall try charming Clinias into agreeing with me. What you both concede to me

should be left at that, and we should return, by all means, to dealing with the laws.

MEGILLUS: Quite correct.

ATHENIAN: I have a device ready to hand for establishing this law, and although it is straightforward,

it is also, in a way, as difficult as could be.

MEGILLUS: What are you referring to?

ATHENIAN: We know indeed that even nowadays most people, however lawless they are, are well

836 e

837 a

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837 e

838 a

1,188 | LAWS VIII – 836e–838a

Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

and truly prevented, without any resistance and with complete consent, from having inter-

course with beautiful people.

MEGILLUS: On what occasions?

ATHENIAN: When they have brothers or sisters who are beautiful. Also, in the case of a son or

daughter, the same law, although it is unwritten, is quite enough to guard against anyone

lying with them either openly or in secret, or wanting to touch them in this way. No, the

desire for this intercourse does not even occur to them at all.

MEGILLUS: That’s true.

ATHENIAN: Doesn’t one little saying extinguish all such pleasures?

MEGILLUS: What saying do you mean?

ATHENIAN: The saying that these practices are not at all holy, are detested by God, and are the most

disgraceful of all disgraceful deeds. The explanation for this is that no one speaks differently

from anyone else about these matters. Rather, each of us, as soon as we are born, hears this

spoken of in comic utterances, or frequently in serious tragedy when Oedipus or Thyestes

appears,

or a Macareus having intercourse in secret with his sister, all of whom are seen

readily inflicting death upon themselves as the penalty for their misdeeds when they come

to light.

MEGILLUS: You’re quite right in saying this much anyway, that popular opinion possesses a won-

drous power once no one at all attempts to breathe a word that does not accord with the law.

ATHENIAN: Isn’t it right, then, as I said just now, that it is easy enough for a lawgiver who wishes

to restrain a desire that utterly enslaves people at least to recognise how he should go about

it? By making this saying sacred in the eyes of everyone, bond or free, children and

women, and the entire city on the same basis, he will thus be ensuring that this law is firmly

established.

MEGILLUS: Very well, but how it will ever be possible to arrange that everyone will be willing to

say this sort of thing...

ATHENIAN: A good interjection. Indeed, this is what I was saying, that in relation to this law I might

have a device for ensuring the natural use of reproductive intercourse; the male refraining

from the male, thus avoiding the deliberate annihilation of the human race by sowing seed

into rocks and stones where it will never take root and adopt its own fruitful nature; refrain-

ing also from any female field in which you would not want the sown seed to spring up.

This law, then, having become permanent and holding sway in the same way that the law

about intercourse of parents with their children prevails nowadays, would indeed confer

countless benefits if it were also to prevail, as is only right, in the other cases too.

Firstly, it is in accord with nature and it brings about restraint of the raging madness

of love, of all sorts of debauchery, of any excesses in drinking and eating, and, indeed, it

makes men friendly and affectionate towards their own wedded wives. There would also

be countless other benefits if it were possible for someone to have this law enforced. But

perhaps some intense young man, his seed overflowing, might be close by and hear us pro-

posing our law, and he might ridicule it as a stupid regulation that is impossible to imple-

ment, and fill the air with his declamations. This is what I had in mind when I made the

statement that I had a particular device for ensuring that this law is permanently established,

in a way the easiest device of all, but in a way, extremely difficult. In fact, it is easy enough

to appreciate that this is possible and how it is possible, for according to us, once this law

has been made sacred enough, every soul will become subject to it. This will lead to a fear

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LAWS VIII – 838b–839c | 1,189

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Oedipus was said to have married his mother, and Thyestes was said to have raped his own daughter in an attempt to

fulfill a prophecy.

of the established laws, and total obedience to them. But nowadays things have come to

such a pass that even with this law in place, it seems that the desired outcome might not

come about. It is just like the situation with the practice of common meals, where the pos-

sibility of implementing this in the daily life of the entire city is greeted with disbelief. And

even though it is an actual practice among yourselves, nevertheless, even in your own cities,

the extension of this practice so as to include women is regarded as contrary to nature. And

so, it was because of the strength of this disbelief that I said that both these practices are

extremely difficult to establish permanently as law.

MEGILLUS: And you were right to say so.

ATHENIAN: So, would you like me to try to formulate some argument possessing some degree of

certainty to show that this can actually happen and is not beyond human capacity?

CLINIAS: Of course.

ATHENIAN: Tell me, then, in which of these cases would someone exercise sexual restraint more

easily and be willing to do as directed in these matters, with due measure – when his body

is in good condition and not out of training, or when it is run down?

CLINIAS: When it is not out of training, this is much easier.

ATHENIAN: Yes, and we all know what is said about Iccus of Tarentum because of his involvement

in the contests at Olympia and elsewhere.

Due to his sheer ambition in these competitions,

his professionalism, and the courage combined with sound-mindedness he possessed in his

soul, they say he never touched a woman, or, indeed, a boy either, while his training was at

its peak. And, indeed, the same story is also told of Crison and Astylus and Diopompus and

very many others. And yet, Clinias, these people had received a far inferior education in

soul than your citizens and mine, while their bodies were much more vigorous.

CLINIAS: You’re right in saying so. Yes, it has been confidently reported by men of old that this

was indeed what actually happened in the case of these athletes.

ATHENIAN: Well then, are these athletes to refrain from what most people refer to as a blissful activ-

ity, all for the sake of victory in the ring or on the track and such like, while our young folk

refuse to tolerate restraint for the sake of a much more sublime victory? This is a victory

whose glory we shall praise as we speak to them from their very childhood, in the hope of

charming them, using stories, speeches and songs.

CLINIAS: What victory?

ATHENIAN: The victory over pleasures, which, if they win it, ensures a happy life, we’ll say, whereas

if they are defeated, the outcome is the exact opposite. And besides this, won’t a foreboding

at the out and out unholiness of this activity be capable of ensuring this victory for them, a

victory which has been won by others who are worse people than these citizens of ours?

CLINIAS: Quite likely.

ATHENIAN: Well, this is our predicament in relation to this particular regulation: we have been cast

into perplexity by the evil ways of the majority of people. So I maintain that our regulation

on these particular matters should simply proceed by stating that our citizens ought not to

be worse creatures than birds and any other animals that flock together on a large scale.

Until the time for reproduction arrives, they live unwed, as pure, chaste virgins, and when

they reach the appropriate age they come together in pairs, as they prefer, male with female,

female with male, and live out their lives in holiness and justice, constant and true to their

first ties of affection. Surely our citizens should be superior to animals. But what if, instead,

they are corrupted by the vast majority of Greeks and non-Greeks in general, seeing and

hearing of the enormous power of the so-called ‘irregular love’ among these people, and

consequently prove unable to win this sublime victory? Then the guardians of the law must

become lawgivers and devise a second law for them.

839 d

839 e

840 a

840 b

840 c

840 d

840 e

1,190 | LAWS VIII – 839d–840e

Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

CLINIAS: What law would you advise them to implement if the one we are now implementing

evades them?

ATHENIAN: The one that comes after this one is obviously second, Clinias.

CLINIAS: Which do you mean?

ATHENIAN: There was a way of making the power of these pleasures largely ineffective by diverting

their influx and sustenance elsewhere through physical work. This would also happen if

there were less shamelessness involved in recourse to sexual activity, since because of the

shame, resort to this would be more sparing and, being used less frequently, the strength of

its tyranny would be reduced. Let them accept then that discretion in such activity is some-

thing noble, endorsed by custom and unwritten law, while lack of discretion is shameful.

But they need not refrain from the activity completely. In this way, we would have a second

best standard of what’s shameful or noble, established by this law, and a second-best stan-

dard of rightness too, and the particular kind of people whose natures have been corrupted,

whom we describe as inferior to themselves, would be restrained by a threefold barrier and

prevented from transgressing the law.

CLINIAS: What are the three?

ATHENIAN: Reverence for God, accompanied by love of honour and the birth of a desire for the

beautiful qualities of the soul rather than those of the physical bodies. What we are now

saying may well be a sort of combination of fable and prayer, and yet if this were to happen

it would be the very best thing that could happen in any city. But perhaps, God willing, we

might enforce one or the other of two regulations concerning sexual relations. One would

be that no noble freeborn person should dare to touch any except his own wedded wife, or

sow unconsecrated and illegitimate seed with concubines, or sow unproductive seed with

males, in contravention of nature. Alternatively, we could completely ban sexual activity

with males, and in the case of women, if anyone consorts with any woman save those

brought into his house and consecrated by divine marriage rites, whether he buys her or

acquires her in any other way, and he is found out by any man or woman, we would probably

be right in enacting by law that he be deprived of his rights and honours as a citizen of the

city because he is, in truth, an alien. So this law then, whether we refer to it as one law or

as two, should apply to sexual relations and all matters concerning love, and what practices

are right and what practices are not right, in our interaction with one another by reason of

such desires as these.

MEGILLUS: Well, stranger, for my own part I would accept this law without reservation, but Clinias

should declare for himself what precisely his views on these matters are.

CLINIAS: That’s what I’ll do, Megillus, whenever I think the occasion is right. For now, let’s allow

the stranger to proceed further with his laws.

MEGILLUS: Right.

ATHENIAN: Very well then, our proceedings have now reached the point at which common meals

have been more or less established. Elsewhere, according to us, this would be difficult, but

in Crete no one suggests doing anything differently. As for the manner in which they are

arranged and whether the system here or the system in Sparta is better, or whether there is

some third system that is better than both, this would not, I think, be difficult to ascertain,

but there would be no great advantage in doing so. In fact, we have now made these arrange-

ments in a satisfactory manner.

The next issue is provision for these common meals in a manner suited to them. In

841 a

841 b

841 c

841 d

841 e

842 a

842 b

842 c

LAWS VIII – 841a–842c | 1,191

–––––

Iccus of Tarentum was an athlete who was noted for his strict adherence to Pythagorean tenets in his training regime,

which included maintaining a meagre diet and abstaining from sexual activity.

the case of cities, there would be a huge variety of provisions from lots of different places,

at least twice as many sources as these cities of ours. For most Greek cities get their food

supply from the land and from the sea, while these cities of ours get it from the land alone.

This makes things easy for the lawgiver, for the number of laws required would be less than

half, much less, and besides, they would be more suited to a free people. Our lawgiver,

being largely quit of merchant shipping, trading, retailing, inn-keeping, compound interest

and countless other requirements of that sort, will then pass laws for farmers, herdsmen,

beekeepers, and for those who supervise such matters and are responsible for the equipment.

He has already enacted laws dealing with the most important issues: marriage, the birth and

upbringing of children, education, and the appointment of officials in the city. He now needs

to turn his attention to legislating in relation to food and the people who collaborate in

producing this.

Firstly, then, let there be laws that go by the name of ‘agricultural’. The first law,

the law of ‘Zeus of the boundary’, may be stated as follows. No one is to move a land

boundary marker, either of a neighbour who is a fellow citizen, or when he owns land

bordering a foreign frontier and his neighbour is a foreigner. He must realise that, in doing

so, he is, in truth, moving the immovable.

And everyone must prefer to attempt the removal

of some enormous rock that isn’t a boundary marker rather than the tiny stone, consecrated

to the gods, that marks off the land of a friend or the land of a foe. For in one case, Zeus,

god of the clan, is witness, and in the other case, Zeus, god of strangers, is witness, and

when these are aroused the most bitter conflicts follow. Now, whoever obeys the law shall

not suffer any of its penalties, while those who disregard it are to be subject to a twofold

retribution, first and foremost from the gods, and secondly from the law. For no one is delib-

erately to move the boundary markers of his neighbour’s land, and whoever does so is to

be reported to the land-owners by anyone who wishes, and they in turn should take him to

court. If someone is convicted of such a crime, since the offender is making a redistribution

of land by stealth or by force, let the court decide what penalty the guilty party must suffer,

or the compensation he should pay.

Furthermore, lots of minor grievances between neighbours, by their very frequency,

give rise to a significant accumulation of ill-feeling, and turn neighbourly relations into

something difficult and extremely bitter. Therefore, a neighbour must be extremely careful

to do nothing offensive to a neighbour, in general, and must always be particularly careful

not to encroach on his land at all. For it is not difficult to do harm – anyone can do so – but

not everyone can confer a benefit. Whoever encroaches upon the land of his neighbour, dis-

regarding the boundary markers, is to make good any damage, and, what’s more, to cure

him of his shamelessness and unworthy behaviour, he is to pay double the damages to the

victim in addition. In all cases of this sort, let the rural commissioners act as inspectors,

judges and assessors. In major cases, as stated previously, the entire command structure of

the district is to act, while in lesser cases the guard commanders may do so.

If someone’s cattle graze on another’s land, these officials shall decide the case and

the penalty once they have inspected the damage. And if anyone exploits the susceptibility

of bees and appropriates a hive by making rattling noises to attract them to his own property,

he is to pay damages. And if he should light a fire and is not careful about his neighbour’s

materials, he is to pay a fine as assessed by the officials. He is also to be fined if, while

planting trees, he plants them too close to his neighbour’s property. These are issues that

lots of lawgivers have dealt with quite adequately, and we should simply make use of their

laws and not expect the important person who is putting our city in order to legislate for

the numerous trivial matters which any random lawgiver could deal with.

842 d

842 e

843 a

843 b

843 c

843 d

843 e

844 a

1,192 | LAWS VIII – 842d–844a

Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

Since time-tested laws are already in place for farmers concerning water supply, we

need not draw upon these for our argument. Rather, anyone who wants to bring water to

his own holding from the communal sources may bring the water provided he does not

intercept the exposed well of any private individual and he avoids any houses, temples and

tombs and does no damage beyond what’s required for the channelling. In areas where the

land is naturally arid and fails to retain the heaven-sent waters and there is a shortage of

necessary drinking water, the person should dig on his own land until he reaches the clay

subsoil, and if he does not encounter any water at all at that depth, he is to be supplied by

his neighbours with enough drinking water to meet the needs of every member of his house-

hold. If the scarcity also extends to his neighbours, he is to make arrangements for a water

supply with the rural commissioners, receiving this on a daily basis, and share his neigh-

bours’ water in this way. And when the rains from heaven come, if someone does damage

to the farm or the adjoining house that lies below his own by blocking the outflow of water,

or, conversely, the person above damages the holding below by carelessly discharging the

flow, and the parties are unwilling to accommodate one another, either may go to the city

commissioners, in one case, or the rural commissioners, in the other, for a direction as to

what they should do. Anyone who does not abide by such a direction is to be penalised for

his grudging and unco-operative spirit, and on conviction is to pay double the damage to

the injured party for his refusal to obey the officials.

In the case of the fruit harvest, the generally accepted rule should be as follows. Two

gifts are bestowed upon us by the grace of this goddess, one being the bounty of Dionysus

that none can store, the other naturally produced for storage. So, let the following law be

enacted concerning the fruit harvest. Whoever tastes the coarse fruit, whether grapes or

figs, before the season of the vintage comes with the rising of Arcturus,

either from his

own land or from another’s, is to pay fifty drachmas, sacred to Dionysus, if he plucks it

from his own property, a mina if plucked from his neighbour’s land, and two thirds of a

mina if it was taken from elsewhere. Whoever wants to harvest what nowadays are called

special grapes or special figs may gather them as and when he wishes if he takes them from

his own land. But if he takes them from someone else’s land without permission, he is to

be fined for each offence in accordance with the law which declares that you don’t disturb

what you have not set down. But if a slave touches such fruit without the permission of the

landowner, he is to be whipped, receiving one stroke for each grape on the bunch or for

every fig taken. A resident alien who has bought a crop of special fruit may harvest it if he

so wishes. A visiting foreigner who wants fruit to eat as he travels the roads may, along

with one attendant, avail of special fruit if he wishes, without payment, as our gift to our

guest. As for the so-called coarse fruit and the like, the law should prohibit the visitor from

sharing in these. And if anyone, master or slave, takes them unknowingly, the slave is to be

punished by being beaten, while the free man is to be told off and instructed to avail of the

other fruit that is not suitable for being stored to make raisins, wine or dried figs. Let there

be no disgrace in taking apples, pears or pomegranates, or the like, secretly, but if anyone

under thirty is caught in the act, let him get a beating, avoiding serious injury, as a deterrent,

and let there be no legal redress available to a free man for such an assault. Let a foreigner

be allowed to partake of this sort of fruit in just the same way as the grapes and figs, and if

any older person avails of them, eating them on the spot and taking nothing away, let him

have his share of all fruit of this sort, just like the foreigner. But if he disregards this law,

844 b

844 c

844 d

844 e

845 a

845 b

845 c

845 d

LAWS VIII – 844b–845d | 1,193

–––––

This was a common expression indicating a resistance to social change.

A reference to the autumnal equinox.

he runs the risk of being disqualified from every public distinction when the time comes, if

such behaviour is brought to the attention of the acting judges.

Water, more so than anything else, is what sustains garden produce, but it is easily

spoiled. For neither earth nor sun nor winds, which co-operate with water in nourishing the

growing plants, are at all easy to spoil by poisons, diversion or theft. However, in the case

of the water, it is possible for everything of that sort to happen, and so the protection of the

law is needed. So, let there be the following law about this. If anyone deliberately spoils

another’s water supply, in a spring or in a pond, with poisons, by digging trenches or by

theft, the injured party is to take the case before the city commissioners, detailing the extent

of the damage. If someone is found guilty of doing such damage using poisons, in addition

to any fine he is also to purify the springs or water reservoir in whatever manner the legal

interpreters prescribe for the conduct of the purification in any particular case, or on any

particular occasion.

When gathering in the season’s harvest, it shall be open to anyone to convey his own

produce through any place he wishes, provided he does no damage, or the profit he himself

gains from the route is three times the damage done to his neighbour’s property. In these

cases, the officials are to act as assessors, and also in all other cases where someone mali-

ciously harms the person or property of another by force or by stealth, by the way he uses

his own possessions. All such cases are to be reported to the officials for award of compen-

sation where the damage is less than three minae. If anyone makes a claim against another

for a greater sum, he is to pursue the case before the public courts to secure redress from

the wrongdoer. If any official is judged to have decided a penalty based upon an unjust

opinion, he is to be liable to pay double damages to the injured party. And, indeed, anyone

who wishes may challenge the unjust decisions of any officials before the public courts.

Governing the conduct of the legal actions, there are countless minor regulations

dealing with the statements of grievance, the summonses, the serving of the summons, and

whether its service requires two witnesses or some other number, and so on and so forth.

These matters do require legislation, but they are unworthy of a senior lawmaker. The junior

lawgivers then are to legislate for these matters, imitating the previous enactments, the

minor imitating the major, having had practical experience of the need for their use, until

they are all arranged in an adequate manner. Then, having fixed them permanently, they

should live by them, since at that stage the measure is right.

For skilled workers in general we should proceed as follows. Firstly, no native citizen

is to be numbered among those who labour at the professions of skilled workers, nor may

the servant of a citizen do so either. For a citizen already has a sufficient profession, one

that demands a lot of practice and a great deal of learning, in maintaining and preserving

the good order of the city, and this needs to be a full-time occupation. For among us humans

there is scarcely anyone who is naturally up to the task of working at two occupations or

professions in a comprehensive manner

. Nor indeed can we practise one profession our

selves while supervising someone else who is practising another. So, in our city, the guiding

principle from the very outset should be that no one is to work as a smith and, at the same

time, as a carpenter, nor indeed while working as a carpenter is he to supervise someone

working as a smith rather than his own profession. It is no excuse to say that by supervising

lots of subordinates who work on his behalf, he naturally supervises them better because

his income from their work is greater than the income from his own profession. Rather,

each skilled worker in the city is to have one profession, and from this he is also to earn his

living. The rural commissioners then are to exert themselves in maintaining this law, and if

any native person is inclined towards any profession to the neglect of the concern for excel-

845 e

846 a

846 b

846 c

846 d

846 e

847 a

1,194 | LAWS VIII – 845e–847a

Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

lence, they shall punish him with censure and loss of privileges until they return him to his

own proper course. If any foreigner pursues two professions, they shall punish him with

bonds, financial penalties and expulsion from the city, thus compelling him to be one person

rather than many. Cases involving payments to workers or the acceptance of their work, or

where someone does an injustice to them or they wrong someone else, are to be decided by

the rural commissioners up to a value of fifty drachmas, but if the amount involved is greater

than this, the public courts are to judge the case according to the law.

No duties are to be paid in our city by anyone either on exported or imported goods.

No one is to import frankincense or any other foreign produce of that sort relating to sacri-

fices to the gods, or purple or any coloured dyes not produced in the country, or anything

associated with any other profession that requires imported goods but serves no necessary

purpose. Nor indeed should any goods that are needed in the country be exported; they

should remain. The overseers and supervisors of all these matters are to consist of the twelve

guardians of the law who are left after the five senior members are exempted.

As for weaponry and all military equipment, there may be a need to import a partic-

ular skill, plant material, metal, rope, or animals, for such a purpose. If so, the cavalry com-

manders and generals are to be given responsibility for the imports and exports, the city

itself being the buyer and seller, and the guardians of the law are to institute appropriate

and adequate laws about these matters. No one in our country as a whole, or in our city, is

to trade for financial gain, either in this or in anything else.

In the case of the food supply and its distribution, it seems that if a good system,

coming close to that set out in the laws of Crete, were to be implemented, that would be

quite suitable. Everyone should divide the total production of the territory into twelve parts,

which is how it is to be consumed. Each twelfth part of wheat, for instance, or barley, are

allocations to which all the other allocations of the crops should conform, including any

animals that are for sale in any district. These parts are to be divided into three, proportion-

ately, one part for free-born citizens, one for their attendants, and the third for skilled workers

and for foreigners in general, including communities of resident aliens who are in need of

sustenance, or people who have come in for a time to do business with the city or some pri-

vate citizens. Of all the basic necessities that have been allocated, this third portion is the

only one that may be placed on sale compulsorily. There is to be no compulsion to sell any

part of the other two divisions. Now, what would be the correct way to allocate these? In

the first place it is obvious that in a way we are allocating them equally, and in a way

unequally.

CLINIAS: What do you mean?

ATHENIAN: The earth will, I presume, inevitably produce each of these portions in varying quality,

some being better than others.

CLINIAS: Of course.

ATHENIAN: In this regard, none of the three subdivisions, once allocated, is to involve any advan-

tage, neither the one given to the masters nor to their slaves, nor indeed the one that belongs

to the foreigners. Rather, the distribution shall ensure the same equality of likeness for

everyone. Each of the citizens, having taken the two portions, is to be responsible for its

distribution to slaves and to free-born, distributing as much as he wishes of whatever quality

he wishes. The surplus from these should be distributed according to the following measures

and numbers. It is to be distributed by counting up the total number of animals that need to

be sustained from the land.

What is needed next are individual houses for the inhabitants, suitably arranged, and

the arrangement best suited to such purposes is as follows. There should be twelve villages,

847 b

847 c

847 d

847 e

848 a

848 b

848 c

LAWS VIII – 847b–848c | 1,195

one in the centre of each of the twelve regions. And in each village we should first set aside

temples and a marketplace for the gods and their associated divinities. And if there are any

local divinities belonging to the Magnetes, or shrines of other ancient divinities whose mem-

ory is still preserved, they are to be granted the same ancient honours that those people gave

them. And in every one of the twelve districts, temples are to be founded to Hestia, Zeus,

Athena or whatever other god happens to be the patron of the region. To begin with, there

are to be dwellings around these temples, wherever the ground is highest, as the most secure

lodging possible for the guards. All the rest of the territory is to be provided with skilled

workers who are to be divided into thirteen groups. One of these will take up residence in

the city itself, and this group shall in turn be divided into twelve parts corresponding to the

twelve divisions of the entire city, dwelling round about on the outskirts, while in each vil-

lage the kinds of workers that will be useful to the farmers are to be given residence there.

The supervisors of all these arrangements are to be the people in charge of the rural com-

missioners. They are to decide the number and type of workers each region needs, and

where they should live so that they will be the least trouble and of maximum benefit to the

farmers. And in the city, in like manner, the board in charge of the city commissioners

should have and retain the supervision of the workers.

The market commissioners are of course to look after everything to do with the

market. Their second task, after their oversight of the temples adjacent to the market in

case anyone does anything wrong, is to oversee the way people conduct their business,

watching out for proper and improper behaviour, punishing anyone who needs to be pun-

ished. They shall first of all see to it that when the city folk are required to sell goods to

foreigners, the sale is conducted according to the law in every case. The law for each item

will be that on the first of the month the portion of the goods that are to be sold to the for-

eigners should be brought out by the agents – that is, the foreigners or slaves who have

been given this task by the city folk. Beginning with corn, the foreigner is to purchase at

the first market a month’s supply of corn and whatever is associated with it. On the tenth

of the month, the sale and purchase of liquid goods is to be conducted, enough to last for

the entire month. Every third month, on the twentieth day, let there be a sale of any live-

stock that need to be bought or sold to meet the needs of those involved. Let there also be

a sale by farmers of any goods or materials such as hides, clothing items in general, woven

materials, felt, and anything else of that sort, items that foreigners are required to purchase

from other people.

As for trading in these goods, barley or wheat flour, or other foodstuffs in general,

no one is to sell these to citizens or their slaves, nor may anyone buy these from them.

However, in the markets of the foreigners, a foreigner, dealing in wine and corn, may sell

to the skilled workers and their slaves, which most people call trading. Butchers too may

cut up animals and distribute the meat among foreigners, skilled workers and their atten-

dants. Any wood for burning may be bought in bulk on any day by a foreigner, as he wishes,

from the agent in the localities, and he may sell it on himself to other foreigners as much

as he wishes, whenever he wishes.

The other goods or products that people need are to be sold in the public market,

being brought to the specific location where the rural commissioners, assisted by the city

commissioners, mark out suitable sites, defining the positions of the stalls. Here, goods are

exchanged for money and money for goods, and no one may forgo his part of the transac-

tion. And if anyone does forgo his part and thus give credit, he must accept his fate whether

he is repaid or not, because no legal redress is available for a contract in such matters. If

the extent or value of the purchase or sale contravenes the law that sets upper and lower

848 d

848 e

849 a

849 b

849 c

849 d

849 e

850 a

1,196 | LAWS VIII – 848d–850a

Laws VIII, David Horan translation, 18 Nov 25

limits beyond which neither transaction may go, the excess shall be recorded immediately

by the guardians of the law in the case of excess, or the transaction shall be cancelled in the

opposite case.

The same rules about the recording of excess wealth are also to apply to resident

aliens. Anyone who wishes may become a resident alien on specified terms, since residency

is open to any foreigner who wishes to reside here and is able to do so provided he has a

skill and dwells here no more than twenty years from his date of registration. All we require

is his good behaviour, so he need pay no aliens’ tax, nor indeed any duty on purchases or

sales, and on completion of his permitted stay he may depart taking his wealth with him.

And if during this time with us he acquires a good reputation because of some significant

service to the city, and he believes he can convince the Council and the Assembly either

that he deserves an official postponement of his departure, or even lifelong permanent res-

idency, let him come forward and persuade the city, and whatever he persuades them of

shall be his in full. For children of resident aliens who are skilled workers and have reached

fifteen years of age, their period of official residency shall begin after they turn fifteen.

When one of them has remained for twenty years on the specified terms, he may go wher-

ever he likes. If he wishes to remain, he may do so, subject to the same procedure for con-

vincing the state. On departure, he is to ensure that any official records, previously recorded

by the officials, are erased.

_____

850 b

850 c

LAWS VIII – 850b–850c | 1,197